Thomas Hirschhorn - Gramsci monument - Art21 - Exclusive

Episode #221: This episode of the ART21 "Exclusive" series features the residents and volunteers behind Thomas Hirschhorn's “Gramsci Monument” (2013)—each of whom worked with the artist to create the site-specific participatory sculpture at the Forest Houses complex in the Bronx, New York. They discuss their experiences working with Hirschhorn, describing how the project affected their lives and their understanding of art. “A monument is usually something that is stable and doesn’t move” says Erik Farmer, the Tenants Association President. “This is a temporary monument—something I had never heard of—but Thomas explained to me what he wanted to do and how he wanted to integrate the residents into the monument.” Volunteer Lex Brown explains that because the “Gramsci Monument” only lasted for two and a half months, “there’s an urgency to it, and without that urgency, it would not be the same thing.” Thomas was at the monument every day while it was open, during which the residents became closely acquainted with his personality and motivations. “He doesn't want anything to interfere with his project,” says resident and monument staff member Dannion Jordan. "If you’re not interfering with his project, everything is good." While enlisting the participation of the residents of a Bronx public housing development to develop a sprawling installation out of everyday materials, Thomas Hirschhorn poses political and philosophical questions, and searches for alternative models of thinking and being. The process leads to the creation of a new kind of monument that, while physically ephemeral, lives on in collective memory. Learn more about the artist at: ****** CREDITS: Producer: Ian Forster & Nick Ravich. Consulting Producer: Wesley Miller. Interviewer: Nick Ravich & Susan Sollins. Camera: Nicholas Lindner, John Marton, Rafael Salazar & Joel Shapiro. Sound: Tom Bergin, Eric Diebner, Judy Karp, Mark Mandler & John Zecca. Editor: Michelle Chang & Morgan Riles. Artwork Courtesy: Thomas Hirschhorn. “Turn It Up” by Skull Snaps Courtesy: Samm Culley, Tom Price, Ervan Waters & Mark Shawn Music. Special Thanks: Dia Art Foundation, New York City Housing Authority, Janet Bethea, Lex Brown, Harry Drake, Erik Farmer, Marcus Green, Adam Guessongo, Barbara Jenkins, Faye Jones, Dannion Jordan, Romain Lopez, Marcella Paradise, Yasmil Raymond, Stanley Scott, Freddy Velez. Theme Music: Peter Foley. ART21 "Exclusive" is supported, in part, by the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs in partnership with the City Council; 21c Museum Hotel, and by individual contributors.

[Thomas Hirschhorn: "Gramsci Monument"] [Forest Houses, Bronx, New York] ["Gramsci Monument" (2013)] [Opening of the "Gramsci Monument"] [HARRY DRAKE] Alright, sorry to interrupt. This is the man of the hour. This is the man, besides Erik, that brought everything to us. [YASMIL RAYMOND] Thomas believes that "more is more." You know, it's a pun on Mies van der Rohe, who said, "less is more." And in this "more and more" philosophy of Thomas Hirschhorn, it means an enormous amount of activities all the time, almost confusing what is happening. [HARRY DRAKE] What you are doing for this community and everything... [HIRSCHHORN] No I don't... I don't do something for the community. I do something, I hope, for art... [HARRY DRAKE] Okay. [HIRSCHHORN] And the understanding of art. That is my... My goal is this. [LEX BROWN] Something Thomas always says is that he did not come here to, like, help people-- he came here to Forest Houses and asked people who lived here to help him make the artwork. And there's a really big difference. There's a huge difference between those two things. [FREDDY VELEZ] Thomas asked me to translate the Gramsci prison notes to Spanish. That was a great opportunity for me, and I just put retirement to the side and just began working with his art. And here I am today, two months later, enjoying myself every day-- and I feel a lot better. [JANET BETHEA] I was more stronger than half of the men over there. I built them buildings. I did the dollies underneath there, on the floor. I did all that with the guys. Except for the roof. I'm scared of heights. [LAUGHS] [STANLEY SCOTT] My name is "Stan the Man". [WOMAN] "Stan the Man"? [STANLEY SCOTT] "Stan the Man". [WOMAN] Oh, I saw your sign. [STANLEY SCOTT] Yes indeed. And I work for love. [WOMAN] We know! [STANLEY SCOTT] It's not about the bills. I don't deal with the... It's not about the money. Anything I make, I make from my heart. Because I ain't... You know, once your love is in it the money's going to come. That's why I joined the monument, because it's like art. Food is like art. You know, cooking. Making something out of nothing. You know, making those dishes look good. Like, oh, that ***'s pretty. Let's see if it tastes pretty. [INTERVIEWER, OFF SCREEN] When people ask you "What is this project?" what do you say? [DANNION JORDAN] Well I walk them over to the brochures... [JANET BETHEA] It's a monument of something... [FREDDY VELEZ] A positive place for art and study. [DANNION JORDAN] You know, they had a smoothie bar... [JANET BETHEA] They can go in the library, read books. [DANNION JORDAN] ...a WiFi station up here... [ERIK FARMER] You know, a monument usually is something that, you know, is stable. It doesn’t move. This is a temporary monument--something I never heard of-- but Thomas explained to me, you know, what he wanted to do and how he wanted to integrate the residents into the monument, as in giving them jobs and wanting to teach the kids about art. [DANNION JORDAN] He doesn't want anything to interfere with his monument, Whether it's rain, Dia:, NYCHA... he doesn't want anything to interfere with his project. If you're not interfering with his project, everything is good. [INTERVIEWER, OFF SCREEN] What happens when you interfere? [DANNION JORDAN] [LAUGHS] Yeah, he just...you know, he gets crazy. He starts screaming--uses his fingers and everything... [HIRSCHHORN] Sunday... Sunday even... [YASMIL RAYMOND] Yes, but I'm here Saturday and Sunday, all... [HIRSCHHORN] I am the artist! [MAN] I look and see there's no one sitting in there first... [HIRSCHHORN] I am the artist. [HARRY DRAKE] He'll be like, "No." [MARCELLA PARADISE] And if you can't stay to three o’clock or four-- which we stay till four all the time-- you get put out the class. [HIRSCHHORN] Okay? We are not observant. There is no observer. [HARRY DRAKE] Thomas is not white. He's not European. He's black. [MARCUS GREEN] I was very inspired by Thomas's poster. And on the poster it says, "All humans are intellectuals." And so, the quote that I want to begin with--which is quote number one-- is taken from that notion. [LEX BROWN] Gramsci's idea that every person is an intellectual is an incredibly important idea. It's a huge part of the project and it is touched upon in every part of it. [ADAM GUESSONGO] My name is Adam. I do graffiti, I draw, and I make sculpture. Or like, this--I'm not done with it yet... I'm not done with this, but I was trying to make a character from a game. [DANNION JORDAN] You're learning--you're teaching-- but it's more like people just...you know, you got Thomas here. It's more about people gathering just still getting to learn one another. Because I don't really know all these guys that I work with, I just know them through other people. You all get to know each other, you learn from each other, and, you know, that's basically it. [Destruction is difficult; it is as difficult as creation. (Antonio Gramsci Prison Notebook 6)] [ERIK FARMER] This is history right here. And it's history just because it's never been done. So when someone speaks about it--someone may try to do it-- but, at the end of the day, it was done at Forest Houses first. Big. Huge. [Quality should be attributed to human beings, not to things. (Antonio Gramsci Prison Notebook 1)] [LEX BROWN] People have to come here, to the monument, to see the monument. This project is site-specific in the most true sense of that phrase. It's as important that this monument will be here for two and a half months as it is that it will not be here after two and a half months. There's an urgency to it. And without that urgency, it would not be the same thing.