Reptil Tv - Folge 68 - Indigonattern

Hello and welcome to episode 68 of Reptil.TV! Today we've got a special episode for you. Today we are going to talk about these handsome animals - Indigo Corn Snakes. Today we want to talk about how to keep them, where they are from and how you can breed them. We want to tell you what there is to know about them. When I started working as a herpetologist, about 20 years ago, you saw a lot of them. Nowadays most of them are extinct in the majority of the states in the US. There is an import and export ban for the whole USA. You won't be able to buy any animals from there, not even offspring. There are some herpetologists, such as Tobias Dold ... Stefan: ... that still have these animals. How many do you own? Tobias: Seven animals. Stefan: He is the proud owner of seven Indigos. Stefan: You've been keeping them since 10 years, am I right? Tobias: Yes, I've been into reptiles for 20 years and started with the Indigos 10 years ago. Stefan: So, he's been keeping Indigos for 10 years now. He owns this beautiful snake room - also he invited us to his place to shoot today's episode here. We are lucky, because that way we can show you how to keep these snakes and illustrate everything with living animals. For today's topic I invited an expert to help me out a bit. Wolfgang Schäberle has been keeping and breeding Indigo Corn Snakes for many years and decades. Stefan: Wolfgang, can you tell us how you get into the business and keep to it for almost 30 years? Wolfgang: 30 years, with intermissions. Indigo Corn Snakes have got some superlatives that still fascinates me. It is the largest Corn Snake species in Northern America. They can be as long as 2,60 m. They have a kind of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde temper. You notice this how they behave, when they eat. That is really crazy. They are quite intelligent. These snakes will never bore you. And they are suitable for starters - as long as you consider certain facts - this is what we will talk about. I can warmly recommend this snake species to everyone. I really like this species. Stefan: Wolfgang, that was the perfect transition. Let's talk about keeping them and what things you have to consider. Could you explain to us how to keep the snake species-appropriate. In this case they belong to Tobias. Is everything ok, or can you comment on possible improvements? Wolfgang: Let me explain a few facts with the help of this terrarium here in the middle. Here you can see, that the basic set-up is terrific. There is about 5cm of mulch. That might astonish you because you can see this ledge here. But with a terrarium of this size, a ledge has the benefit that we have a temperature gradient inside the terrarium. We need about 28 °C at the top. And on the ground level it should be around 23 °C. With a large terrarium, you could not have ledge, but then the gradient would be the other way around - from left to right. You have to be careful, that your terrarium isn't too high. With about 50 cm you have a drop height, where animals with 2-3 kg have to much mass and could hurt themselves too easily! Tobias did fantastic job, he's got cork down here and the water bowl has got rounded edges. Wolfgang: Even if the snake would fall, nothing could happen here. Stefan: But in general these snakes don't climb about in trees? Wolfgang: Seldom. But sometimes they would chase a bird, if they have a chance to catch it. They like to climb but are not really good at it. If you look at their anatomy, they aren't made for climbing. However, they are really fast when moving on the ground. You also should provide some kind of uplift, as you can see here. Wolfgang: If you look here, he has got some kind of ... what is this? Stefan: It is like a duct made out of cork. His solution is great. In addition, the height from the top is perfect. That way they feel safe. This terrarium is perfect. If you look at the basic set-up. Furthermore, the hygiene standard is great. Stefan: Let's talk about feeding. How often do you feed your animals? Do you feed pups more than adults? What do you feed? Could you walk us through the basics? Wolfgang: With Indigos that is an exciting topic. With an adult animal, your feeding interval would be between 8 and 10 days. You should feed between 3 to 5 semi-adult rats. We are talking about rats that way about 300 gr. The animals shouldn't be too large. Indigos are snake eaters, they can't open their mouth as wide as other species - they would have trouble with too large animals. This applies for adult animals. Their metabolism is very interesting. They defecate after about five animals the latest. Their metabolism is rather high. Their defecation is more paste-like and accompanied by a certain smell. This on the other hand explains their hunger. After 8 days they start to be nervous and are very active inside the terrarium. You can't compare their growth with Boas, Ball Pythons or other Corn Snakes. Even if they look thin, they need a lot of food; otherwise, they won't grow in length. Because later on, they will only gain mass, if they are long enough. We'll talk about that later. Stefan: So we have a different case here. With many snakes the advice is that you have to pay attention and not overfeed them. Stefan: Do you also feed pups every 5 days? Wolfgang: Yes, feed them 3 to 4 adult mice, every 5 days. They can really handle that much food. You will notice if they really grow too fat. If they look too firm and sturdy, then you can reduce their food. However, due to their high metabolism, I can only advise you to feed them enough, so they can really gain mass. A very important fact you need to know! Please don't feed Indigo Corn Snakes with living animals. This is because Indigos don't strangle their prey. They will grab the mouse and smash it against the wall. They way they kill their food is rather barbaric. This is something that isn't great in a terrarium. If you think about animal welfare, this would be a contradiction. Stefan: So hands off! Wolfgang: Yes, exactly. They would bite at everything. If there is another living animal inside their terrarium, they could injure themselves. If the food is frozen or pre-killed, it is much better for snake and prey. Today you can buy everything from your local dealer. Stefan: Yet feeding is so special and fascinating when you have Indigo Corn Snakes. That is where you see them with all their traits. Wolfgang :Yes exactly. Stefan: They are clumsy and forceful at the same time. As a spectator, this is really interesting. Wolfgang: If you want to see some action, you can use long feeding tweezers . Open a small slit and maybe move the mouse up and down. That is already enough. You will have a lot of movement in the terrarium and many blows on the window! With Indigos, I do not support live feeding. Apart from that, I would not recommend to feed anything besides mice and rats. Stefan: Great topic! What about fish, birds or something else? Wolfgang: As with all animals, once they've become accustomed to this food, it is hard to feed them something else. If you ever fed fish or chicks, you know that this is accompanied by nasty smells. Stefan: So your advice is to feed mice and rats. Wolfgang: Yes, if you do it right, they will really appreciate that. The most important rule is to never reach into a terrarium, as long as there is something inside that smells like food! They would bite everything that comes in their way. In all other aspects, they are the most easy-care animals and very tame. Stefan: Here I have got a Drymarchon egg, an Indigo egg. Sooner or later, this is what each and every enthusiast wants to hold in his or her hand. We want to breed these animals. What can you tell us about breeding? Wolfgang: Well Stefan, here you can see the perfect female for breeding! This animal is about 1,80 m long. It should weigh about 2 kg. I always compare ... could you hold it at the back please? ... it is as thick as my forearm. That is the size a snake should have, at least when you have a normal forearm. That way they are not egg-bound. If you hold the egg next to it you can see how large this egg is! Stefan: Yes, the egg is really large for that body! Wolfgang: Some breeders start to breed with 3 years. They will be egg-bound and you will have a lot of problems. You can nicely see here, think about eight eggs being in there! The animals really need mass! That they are only supposed to be long, that is the wrong thought! That isn't the case at all! The animals need enough mass; otherwise, they can't lay the eggs at all! Stefan: Ok, could you maybe ... Wolfgang: Let's put her back inside. She only hissed a bit, no problem. She probably smelled the stud and wanted to copulate. With pythons, you will never notice this. Nevertheless, this feels like a rasp! It is a factor when the egg is supposed to be laid - in addition it is that rough. Wolfgang: It is almost like sandpaper. Stefan: Exactly. Stefan: Of course, the female has to be large enough for the eggs to be laid. I have an other question. Often people say that Pythons also have to be large enough to lay eggs. I always say that they will copulate when they are ready and will lay eggs when they want to - so nothing will happen to them. How can this be in nature? If the female has to be at least three years old, how does it work? Males probably won't say: Ohh, that female is too young for me. Wolfgang: I can only speculate, I can't prove my thoughts. The decline in population has many reasons, such as the destruction of their natural environment. But I think it is possible that females die in nature, because they are physically not ready to lay eggs! However, maybe nature is doing its magic and their hormones related to sexuality are only released when they are at least between 3 - 5 years old. I think, that nature is quite well balanced and perfect. The male will even probably not notice the female. Her den will probably smell like something completely different. Scientists looked into this and found that adult males cover an area of up to 200 hectares, while they are looking for a female they can mate with. Females cover an area of about 50 hectares. This can also add up to the factors why males cover such a large area. Anyhow, it is important to breed the animals, as soon as they are five years old. If you are an Indigo breeder - time and patience are the qualities you need. You can't hope for offspring after 1 year. With 3 years, it's an all-or-nothing gamble. With 5 years, it is a joy. The animal is healthy and there is no risk in laying the batch - every two years. Stefan: That was a good transition to the next topic. How do you stimulate your animals? The gag is that they copulate during fall. Wolfgang: Yes, the Indigo Corn Snakes copulate during fall, between October and November. You can say, they copulate when the temperature slowly declines. If you normally keep them between 28 °C - 24°C - always depending on the outside temperature - I lower the gradient from 24 °C to 20 °C. Their activity is reduced by a bit. With that, the hormone production is stimulate and the animal is ready to copulate. Wolfgang: That's all there is to it. Stefan: That is a huge exception. All the other snakes copulate after winter is over, when the temperatures start to rise again. Stefan: And with Indigos it is the other way around. Wolfgang: There are breeders that breed them in captivity during spring time. This is said to also work. However, this contradicts the notion of natural cycle. The zoo in New York studied them, they say that they store sperms for up to five years. So Indigo Corn Snake breeders are sometimes surprised and happy that they have offspring, even if they didn't plan it. This is an other reason why Indigos are so fascinating and why it is the best snake out there. Stefan: Let's come back and talk about winter again. So you reduce the temperature during fall, then they copulate and afterwards you lower the temperature even more, don't you? Wolfgang: After copulation, we'll talk about how you accomplish that in a second. At the beginning of December they go into a winter rest, they do not hibernate. If the temperature rises, metabolism is too high and you won't have any offspring. This is quite important. Maintain that for two months, afterwards you can raise the temperature again. Stefan: Do you feed your animals in that phase? Wolfgang: Yes, and afterwards she receives a lot of food, that is a prophylactic measure. Stefan: But only afterwards. And during these two months you do not feed anything, do you? Wolfgang: They are not fed during that time. There are some signs you can observe. If the animals are laying in their hiding spots and are rather inactive, this is a good sign that the temperature is spot-on. If they are too active, the temperature is too high. The result is a higher metabolism and breeding is very difficult. In March, after the temperature is up again, I feed and feed and feed them. In the hope that she is pregnant. Stefan: And you don't try to copulate them afterwards, do you? Wolfgang: No, I don't. Stefan: Really, unbelievable. Wolfgang: However, some breeders do. They put the same animals together again. I do not depend on offspring. If nature worked out, I am of course happy to receive them. Wolfgang: I can live with it not working out. Stefan: But this method works for you, so you'll change nothing. Wolfgang: There are other successful breeders, they also adhere to this method. This works like a charm. Stefan: You just talked about pairing them and putting them together. What are the things you have to consider? As soon as the females starts to produce hormones, you can see that the male in his terrarium is more active than before. They cease to eat, just like other species and are very driven. After a week, when he is pumped with hormones, I take out the male. I always put the male inside the female's terrarium. As in nature, the male is always searching for a female. The experience of herpetologists is, that if you take out the female, she is not as likely to copulate. Wolfgang: Hence, always the male ... Stefan: ... the male is on the lookout ... Wolfgang: ... that is what drives the male. That drives the male and the new surroundings are inspiring. Stefan: So you have to observe your animals a lot. You don't say, ohh 1st of November, put in the male. You observe their behavior, you notice the male is nervous, he's looking - so something is up, is it like that? Wolfgang: Stefan, your absolutely correct, that is how I do it. If you ever watched them, then you will clearly notice this behavior. The moment where you put them together will be spot-on. If they don't copulate, the reason is almost always that you were too early or too late. The intervals aren't right and the female isn't ready to receive anymore. I often put the male to the female on a Sunday - on this day I almost always have time. I'll be in the vicinity and observe for about two hours. Don't be in front of the terrarium, I am further away. Wolfgang: I can see through the curtain and I stay close by. Stefan: Because of cannibalism, that is the next thing we should talk about. Wolfgang: Cannibalism is something that is over exaggerated with Indigo Corn Snakes. They are snake eaters. But in nature this is part of their typical diet. When you put two animals together that are of different sizes. That is often the case when a breeder is too thirsty for success. He has got a mature five year old female and wants to breed it with a three-year-old male, which could already copulate. Unfortunately, often both animals are dead. The male is devoured, but not dead and digested - so he in return mortally wounds the female. If you pay attention and both sexes are about the same size and mass, then nothing is going to happen. This is usually the case, however I can't be held liable for this. Everybody has do decide on their own. I often can observe that the female is less active and tries to avoid the male. Accordingly she tries to withdraw. This is when you should remove the male from her terrarium. Stefan: All right, so you only go through this procedure once. After this has happened once, you observed that they somehow where intimate, you then let it be and wait for spring to come? During those few days where they are together, they copulate several times. This is an interesting situation. The females start to crawl, almost in circle through the terrarium I was lucky enough to observe this a few times. You don't know which animal is where, they are really tangled up. If your lucky, you can see that the cloacae are there. And you will notice traces of *** inside the terrarium. After this has happened, I leave them alone for the night. The next day I then separate them. Often intercourse was successful. Then I feed them well, because this helps her to receive. Let her defecate. 6 weeks later the transitions towards winter rest begins. Stefan: I understand, you don't retry the procedure, only once for three days. You notice that something happened There is one funny thing about copulation that you told me. We have to talk about that. You said that with males you can actually observe this. Wolfgang: Definitely. It is quite funny, I don't know if you can observe this with other snakes as well. Stefan: I have never noticed it. Wolfgang: As soon as the male ejaculates, you can see a shiver go through it from head to toe. The head starts to shake and it goes through the whole body, almost like a rhythm. And then it begins at the top again. Stefan: I haven't heard of it or seen something like that before. Wolfgang: I have to say again, a terrific species; you can have a lot of fun with them. Stefan: We were successful. One or more eggs have hatched and now we have babies. With Indigos, I know that it can be difficult to get them to eat in a good way. How do you raise them and how do you get them to eat in a good way? Wolfgang: My rule of thumb is to raise the pups in racks. From my point of view, they have proven their worth. ... and when they are not too high. The animals have an environment where they feel safe and cozy. The light is a bit dull and this is a good protection. Stefan: So the use of racks has been proven and done for some time now? I don't want our viewers to think that nowadays you have to keep each and every animal in a rack. So, Indigo breeders have been using this system for years now, haven't they? Wolfgang: I have been using my rack system for 5 years now. I use 12 boxes - they almost look the same as here - and I have a heating installed on the back side. I really am satisfied - I just talked about the reasons. You should avoid heating the boxes from below, rather install the heating on the backside. I use small heating panels. This way I have about 28 °C at the back and towards the front I have the gradient I need. Stefan: Yes, you have a nice gradient. Wolfgang: And that way they feel safer and are more secure. They grower quicker. As it is often, contrary to all the discussion about terrarium sizes, we can conclude that in a smaller terrarium they are quicker to grow according to the size. In a large terrarium with 2 by 1 m, they more or less feel lost. While raising pups, racks are eligible. But it is also clear, that afterwards I would not use them anymore. Stefan: I agree, with adult animals it isn't feasible. Wolfgang: That is my opinion. Stefan: Let's talk about feeding these pups. Do you go straight fore mice, or do you rather use fish or chicks - that is a question that often arises. Wolfgang: In my experience, you should leave the animals alone. Up until the yolk has been completely reabsorbed. You can go over for 14 days, don't press too hard. Avoid to wave about with your feeding tweezers all the time. Stefan: What do you mean be, you can go over for 14 days? 14 days from hatching or from the first molt? Some try from the first day on, my experience has been different. The basic principle is to leave them in peace, in defiance of their large appé***. As we can see here, you can help yourself with such a gadget that you can slide back and forth - it is made out of cork. Thus, I fitted all the side panels in my racks with frosted glass. Thereby eliminating much of the ambient light. As soon as I feed my Indigos the first time, I feed them a small Dipodidae, nothing larger. And I put the mouse through the back here, where I open the cork a tiny bit. Remember, my prey is dead! Stefan: Through the ventilation hole. Wolfgang: Yes, we agreed on feeding dead prey. I wanted to be clear about that. I go through here with the dead prey and hold it with tweezers. Then, with tiny movements, I let it seem as if the prey where still alive. Be careful that you don't cause any vibrations - otherwise the Indigo will be long gone. Stefan: I see, only small movements. We want to fool the snake. Wolfgang: Exactly At the beginning, they are not able to find it. For them everything smells like mouse. Otherwise, they would bop about and not find anything. Then they see something moving, they then are scared and will, as a result try to hide. That way you can accustom them to eating mice. I would not start to mix in fish or chicks. We talked about the reasons earlier. For me it would not make sense. Rodents are THE prey of choice here. The next day it will be gone. With pups, only feed raw animals for about half a year. Don't make them insecure by taking it out too often. After it has reached a certain mass, you then can do all this. That way you will really enjoy your animal. Stefan: What about the fittings? I have a question - let me put this to the side; but you can also see it down there. A basic set-up would be to put in a water bowl and a hiding spot. Is there something else to it? Don't forget some mulch. The mulch should be higher, at least in my opinion. That way they really can hide everywhere. At the beginning, even these hiding spots don't feel safe for the snakes. They really want to be safe from all sides, just like in a rodents den. Wolfgang: They really dig themselves in. Stefan: All right, you have to fill in more litter. Wolfgang: Apart from that, this is a perfect setup. Personally, I would also put in a small wet box. Regulating the humidity inside a rack is not always easy. Stefan: You could also use some damp moss? Wolfgang: That would work. Considering everything we just said, we would have a perfect situation. In addition, this would totally comply with the regulations on keeping snakes. Wolfgang: I can only recommend this system! Stefan: The snakes do eat much better. Wolfgang: When the snakes have a certain size, about 80 cm or bit more, and then I would move them into a real terrarium. Then you can be thrilled by your new Indigos. All this time we have been talking about the Couperi, the Drymarchon Couperi, the Black Indigo Corn Snake. That is a classic. Here we have three other comrades we want to show you. My snake is a so-called Yellow Tail. You can see its nice, yellow tail. All in all, it isn't really black; it is more of a brown color. My friend doesn't want to be presented. It has its mouth wide open. It is a Drymarchon Corais Corais. Wolfgang, what have you got? This one is super rare. I am holding a Texan Indigo Corn Snake, Drymarchon Corais Erebennus. I am delighted. You don't see one of these often! Stefan: This is the rarest of them all, isn't it? Wolfgang: Absolutely! Finally, Tobias, he is holding the largest species. The co-called unicolored, as they commonly called. The Drymarchon Corais Unicolor, that is also their scientific name. They are the largest of the Indigo Corn Snakes. If I am not mistaking, they can be as long as 3m. The is the largest sub-species. These are all the animals we can show to you today. Of course, there are others as well. For instance there is a Black Tail, it is closely related to the Yellow Tail. There are some more. But these here are the snakes that we can show to you, apart from the Black Indigo snakes. We've reached the end of this episode. Tobias, one million thanks to you for the fantastic accommodation and these terrific terrariums. A million thanks to Wolfgang for his outstanding job in explaining everything. Now we all are experts when we talk about this species. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Therefore, until next time. Check my Balls! And check my Indigos! Stefan: Hello and welcome to a new ... wait to the episode about ... which number are we at? 68? Am I right? Camera: Jep, 68! Today's topic is about sadomasochism and bondage gear and leather. Just look at this nice and black thing here, of course we are not! This is an Indigo Corn Snake! Here I have Natasha, the bullwhip. Wolfgang: You didn't film that, did you? Camera: Just say it right again. You are ... as I just said ... bla bla bla Director: Pretty please! Camera: Why don't you start, give him a cue. Stefan: Topic. Feeding. Wolfgang: Yes, Stefan it ... Wolfgang: Are you ready? Director: Yes. Wolfgang: Can I? Director: Yes. The cue was .... hmmm wait ... They are and will be ... the Central American ... they are a bit ... Hold it a bit like ... Stefan: As always, I am holding the most dangerous. Wolfgang: Well, mine is also beginning to ... Stefan: Finally, we showed you ... Wolfgang: Stefan, be careful! Your snake is already opening its mouth! Wolfgang: It looks like she is hungry and ready to start biting like a sewing machine. Stefan: Huh? Are you sure? Stefan: All right. Wolfgang: Come on, you have to start with your text part!