James Naughtie Interview with Anthony Worral Thompson and Chrissie Hynde

James Naughtie We have a star with us, we have Chrissie Hynde with us, a very committed vegetarian and very anxious to convince people that it’s the right course to take. Anthony Worrall-Thompson the chef and restaurateur is on the line – he takes a different view I think – he guzzles his meat with gusto. Now Chrissie Hynde, do you think against the background of this outbreak which is worrying people so much and the images they see, it is inevitable that people will make the kind of decision that you made?  Chrissie Hynde I’m not that hopeful, I think it’s a good job that people are seeing that animals are being slaughtered. Those animals were going to the slaughterhouse anyway, it’s about time that people start to see what’s going on.  James Naughtie Your own vegetarianism is as a result, is it, of your belief that you just think that animals shouldn’t be killed for food? It’s a principled stand like that?  Chrissie Hynde Yes, it’s a principle and also you don’t need it, so why would you want to kill something if you don’t have to? It’s a very simple principle.  James Naughtie Anthony Worrall-Thompson, you must feel that people are bound to be influenced, aren’t they, because they may eat meat at the moment, and prefer not to think of slaughterhouses and their grizzly business. But now, whether they like it or not, they’re seeing it on the TV screen. It’s going to change a lot of people’s minds, isn’t it?  Anthony Worrall-Thompson Yes, of course it is. I don’t know if anything it’s going to drive more people into being a vegetarian but maybe more people will consider eating fish, which of course is vital to our diet and probably more important than meat. Unfortunately fish consumption has been dropping for many years apart from famine (?) and the recent scares about famine (?) make fish even in doubt. Whether that’s a good view as well – but what I think what we’ve always got to remember is that we’ve been eating meat ever since we were in the caves …  Chrissie Hynde That’s very silly thing to think – that’s nonsense.  James Naughtie Is it nonsense?  Anthony Worrall-Thompson It’s a fact – the fact is …  Chrissie Hynde Who’s this we who’s been eating …  Anthony Worrall-Thompson Natural ways. They tried to turn cows into meat eaters, and look what it did to them. I’m not saying we – everyone’s got the right to choose, that is the main thing about diet.  Chrissie Hynde You’re saying everyone has the right to choose to kill, where’s the principle in that? Where is the humanity?  Anthony Worrall-Thompson I don’t think it does. It’s just a fact that that is what is happening. Animals have been bred to eat, not bred - we couldn’t have the amount of animals just wandering around our countryside if we weren’t going to eat meat.  Chrissie Hynde You don’t need to stuff factory farms full of animals. They’re not wandering around the countryside. There are no animals wandering around the countryside. They’re in pens.  James Naughtie Are you particularly concerned – you’re obviously concerned about factory farming – a lot of people who don’t take your view on what they eat who would agree with you on that. But you go further than that.  Chrissie Hynde I think all of the farmers would agree. I don’t think there’s a farmer in this country that wanted to use factory farming methods. They were pushed into it after the war.  Anthony Worrall-Thompson I agree with you there. I use the words "walking around the countryside" – most factory farmed animals aren’t walking around the countryside.  Chrissie Hynde Right. They’re not even walking around in a pen.  Anthony Worrall-Thompson No, I agree, I agree with that. We’ve got to spend more our food to get better, more trustworthy food.  Chrissie Hynde But why, why do you insist on this meat-eating habit? You don’t need it, it’s not healthy, it’s causing a lot of suffering, look at the mess we’re in. You’re right we’ve always done it this way, and look at the state of the place.  Anthony Worrall-Thompson I really think that the likes of the Vegetarian Society which was set up in Ramsgate in 1847 is fine for people who want to be vegetarians, but don’t thrust the message down our throats. Let the choice be with the public, if they like eating meat, if they like fish, let them eat it. If they want to be vegetarians, I’ve got absolutely nothing against it. But, please, I ask vegetarians if you’re going to be serious about it, why eat rubbish like Quorn mince and veggie-burgers?  Chrissie Hynde Now you’re just being – that’s an irresponsible thing to say.  Anthony Worrall-Thompson No …  Chrissie Hynde How are you calling it rubbish when you’re eating rotting carcasses and you’re feeding that to your children and you’re saying that a vegetarian is eating rubbish because we don’t want to participate in a slaughter?  Anthony Worrall-Thompson We don’t eat rotting carcasses that’s the problem with some of …  Chrissie Hynde We think they are, they’re dead so they start …  Anthony Worrall-Thompson Don’t argue on a silly basis. The fact is that there are meat-eaters out there. 87 per cent of us eat meat. We have eaten meat for generations, centuries. There are some very famous people who have been vegeterians: Verdi, Tolstoy, Wagner, Bernard Shaw, but I don’t notice …  Chrissie Hynde What you’re saying doesn’t constitute any sort of …  James Naughtie Do you notice Anthony in your restaurants that people are eating less red meat for example?  Anthony Worrall-Thompson No I don’t really. I do notice it at people’s homes, that they’re eating less red meat but I tend to think that when they go to restaurants they feel the meat is going to be of superior quality and they trust it. People are eating more fish in restaurants because they don’t know how to cook it at home.  Chrissie Hynde Why do you insist on eating meat when you know that you don’t need it? And that it’s not healthy for you?  Anthony Worrall-Thompson That is one thing …  Chrissie Hynde Because you enjoy it. Therein lies the problem really.  Anthony Worrall-Thompson We shouldn’t just eat to survive. We should eat to enjoy as well.  Chrissie Hynde We shouldn’t eat to survive, we should to enjoy – when you’re killing something?  Anthony Worrall-Thompson Course we should. We’re in this life too short …  Chrissie Hynde This is moral corruption.  James Naughtie You just can’t understand how enjoyment and killing an animal can go together?  Chrissie Hynde Am I in the minority here? Or …  James Naughtie No, no that was a question – a completely neutral question.  Chrissie Hynde No, yeah, please, you know.  James Naughtie You can’t see how enjoyment … Anthony Worrall-Thompson says you can enjoy meat, you cannot see how the enjoyment of food can go along with the killing of the animals.  Chrissie Hynde No, I don’t see how that’s justifiable at all.  Anthony Worrall-Thompson That should be our choice, surely. That would be very nanny state that says we can’t eat meat. We are entitled to eat meat and we have to have that choice. That is what the principle …  Chrissie Hynde You have to have a choice? Why do we have to have that choice?  James Naughtie Would you ban meat?  Chrissie Hynde Would I ban meat? I would ban killing if it’s unnecessary.  Anthony Worrall-Thompson And what are you going to do with all the animals around the world, the 50-60 million animals in this country that need feeding and …  Chrissie Hynde Why are there so many animals here that need feeding?  Anthony Worrall-Thompson Why are they culling elephants in Africa? Because …  Chrissie Hynde They’re culling elephants in Africa?  Anthony Worrall-Thompson Yep.  James Naughtie I think on the elephant point …  Chrissie Hynde Am I dreaming here or what? What are you talking about?  James Naughtie … we’ll leave it. Anthony Worrall-Thompson and Chrissie Hynde here with us in the studio, thank you both very much indeed.