Crossing The Dark Side of The American Border - With david neiwert

really offsets on the phone it's a pleasure to welcome to the program Dave now I worked he is the author of several books I including his latest and hell followed with her a blogger Crooks and Liars and has relaunched or Sun or Senate's which I just realized a year for the first time in my life I pronounce correctly and in a go to the killer whales as well I Dave welcome to the program hey thanks for having me sabes yeah we've we love killer whales are here in Seattle so I understand I am so iight so let some a let's dig into this amino you know I have talked about this the yearbook in the past but the I don't know that we've done it on this program the book came out in March I E and he it really I'll it basically follows the trajectory love the Minutemen movement if you could call it that from before from from whence it came and from where it went and in uses of course the the story of Shana forward I as a a as a centerpiece tell us first let's start with tell us who Shawna Forde is I guess and there was well support is woman currently out in tears on his death row I but she was a a woman from up here in my neck of the woods ever Washington a who got all caught up in the Minutemen movement back about 2006 when they started doing the is a way to prove that they were racist letter to do it border watches Archer on the Canada Border and shot at all involved in the book there and mother going down to Arizona and in the process serve to some trying to carry out her plans to develop a sort of super militia on the border she wound up marina family down there sources on death row for that now a but yeah it is it really is my investigative work on the Minutemen for they came from and how they pull them somebody like Shawna Forde and where the really wet I you know we're still living with their legacy today yeah let's before we get to a where they went let's let's let's talk about from from whence they came because there was certainly I N and i want to talk about this as well win during the the hiatus love the should the Minutemen glorification there was a real sense that this sort of this movie came out over you know her nothing but a response to a real desperate problem I mean you know it's funny we don't hear this much anymore but I remember back in the day on Air America getting calls from people say like you have no idea the carnage that's going on down here in the South West I am and it was all part of that but but in fact there really was no carnage going on down there and this was not I some the assertive developed at have out of thin air like like a much of the right-wing was just sort of a repackaging well there there was a problem on the war but undoubtedly because there are millions people coming flooding over through that desert land they're crossing people's ranches send it was a roll this option a lot of that had to do with the fact that a we had policies over forcing these people out into the desert but um the it that said there was a lot also a lot of beer back then ellos whipped up by these guys doing were Malaysians and really the idea for doing for the militias came from a guy named Glenn Spencer who's agitating for this stuff at a california back in the nineteen nineties and spencer's outfit a was designated a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center back in the 90's because those so overtly racist I'll and he moved to Arizona in about two thousand two around the same time that Kristen *** the told founder the minimum decided to start this up he actually also got the idea from some talk did not from Spencer but from and earlier border militia out called ranch rescue that operated down there in Arizona area ranch rescue got put out a business because the actually detained and harassed Latino border for crosses that they caught am on the beams taken to court for so from but at any rate the you know this stuff came from the Far racist right from many years I mean steps about his ideas from the reduced clone border watch that happened back in nineteen eighty a he doesn't know that with the patriot militia movement to the nineties and started advocating for these border militias members for the idea came from in in a and SIM cards picked up on this and Jim Gilchrist waters along and said let's take this nationalist I just have it be a little locals militia so up watching a borderless have everybody from across the nation come down here to do a mass demonstration now anyway well when you talk about the policies that basically started to drive particular Mexican Campesinos across the border just go back and remind people what those policies were and I'm also curious as to whether or not the that the those policies I am E you know that Spencer was reacting to a a new flied a immigration or just simply I'll was looking around California in just really had a problem with the Latino *** yeah Old Course a problem real problem was that was after in the end that's was a bottom line up what through this because nafta a we force the Mexicans to change the constitution so that their corn farmers no longer had protection from America competition from American courts and so certainly sweet corn farmers were a unable to compete with cheap American corn and that for over a million farmers in mexico out a business with them just a few years serve couple years a the passage of nafta and that was just the beginning of the downturn in the economy a part of this whole promises nafta was that a well jobs would you know GM and Ford would prove their plants down to mexico and they did that initially but it only lasted for a couple years because within two years those plans moving to mexico their up in taken rhythm taken flights to Asia and so the promised a compensation increases in manufacturing jobs proved to be a mirage so you have to literally millions of people from our were to mexico the so much for the call me still a massive downturn and you know these are people your human being like everybody else in the trying to feed their families yes persist feed your family figure out a way to do it even if it involves crossing the border illegally yen we were told there was going to be all sorts over after the initial passage in after we were told they were gonna be all sorts a labor protections and environmental protections the that part of the package never arrived and Mikey say I am hereof corn a Mexican corn cost twice as much in Mexico then an American hereof corn I N so these guys go from the the country into the city and they have no jobs there and that the right they've been there what else what are the choice today have now was when you know you mention that there was a there was a a tremendous flood immigrate if immigrants across the border at that time was there is much violence is we were led to believe no another as much violence a although it kept has gotten bad as with the incursion other cartels in the human smuggling business originally this is all done you know as mules areas people out there to the border crossing as a goes away life and business a and would guide people and then the cartels got involved and sir says so there has been and definitely an increase in a acts of violence mostly involving border crossers down there but very little violence involving people who actually live on the borders you know they're the revenue a deal with people you know coming through and asking for water and stuff like that a lot more and a lot of cases breaking through fences and wearing their child's out that sort of thing I'll but yeah everyone jumped all over there was the the k so the rancher down there who was killed by supposedly a border crosser although that's still never been cases never been solved but there are a lot of assumptions in that case and it was assumed that you know if he encounter somebody who you know it was probably a drug mule or something like that and shot him although now investigators believe that the person sharon is actually a living in the United States the United States citizens not far crossers so um but thats that never got famous reported very much and the those cases and back a steer quipped up a lot of fear was really wildly overblown in the press I'll and in blown while they are proportion I just a mere Press Berlin the national press you up later or Fox News the robber transfer but from that was a.m. its worst comparing his demanded attention and pressed up that case got compared to the *** percent the floor switch was very minimal attention by the both ears on a and national press might work before before we get actually this dude the that that the specific so that story just give me a sense of urgency why you think I the Minutemen were so easily I mean I guess you know this became a just a this is sort of a huffy nom that a you know what sort of the foreshadowing above love this order the the Tea Party be there it's a RR our press certainly has a a penchant for these certain right-wing extreme the movement yeah I will nativism is always been a rare in phenomenon and they're always been a diverse elements offender the mainstream Republican Party but now they've pretty much really risen 24 and the meant a lot to do with that it's important to remember that you know when we talk about immigration before the main event came on same we really the see discussion really revolved around the number love people who were in the united states not the actual people who are crossing the borders much and put them in a band that was that they released focused the whole made the whole immigration debate change to be about the suppose that border security issue and in this is what we're still living this today that status about border security really has begun with the Minutemen and it it was pretty funny because I mean Kristin karst the cofounder the minimum would go around and say things like well I'm same the United Nations troops massing on the other side of the border I can't help but believe either Chinese troops ready to invade the United States and you know talking about they were talking all about the it constantly about terrorist crossing the border from Mexico because after 9/11 we gotta secure our borders alters this is kinda the point of doing when we would ask him world why not do for watches in Canada them because that's where we actually had a terrorist cross the border back in nineteen ninety-two I right they say well what does fortunes so sure enough foreign universities Canada Border watches which I attended and I you go out there you talk to these people watching and the Canadian border and irascible what you watchin for Stewart you know they were watching for Canadians they were watching for reporters like me for that was what they're out there a catch justices reporters just as border watchers there in arizona were a really they weren't there to catch border crossers they were there to jet attention from the media and in fact the media back in April 2005 actually outnumbered a the border watchers you know there are only about a hundred and fifty maybe 200 border watchers down there now there are about 250 or 300 people from the media they recover them with float when I'm course you would never known that some actually watching the coverage at the time but anyways some *** set up his Canada Border watches the following years away if proving that they were racist go up there you talk to these people and what they were angry about was Latino border crossers Mexico it isn't sure about Canadian border crossers so if you got stationed up in canada where you like I'm hoping to get bumped up to see some real action or what women want the added to these people all know they were the knew that they were out there to make a point that they knew that they were out there is a sort of a spoarer street theatre for them a a.m. they understood the game engine you know i mean where how just how would you know what how cynical were these people in other words was this really was this about getting cash was it simply about sir to promoting a native nativist viewpoint in this was a certain the best way in which do it mean a or you with there are some people who are genuinely concerned like look you know the the feds are gonna protect us from Latino terrorists the come from Canada who you know I gotta do I've stated that I think the latter was actually the mast people that I encountered up there they were well me 18 cents/yr people who who plot way right wing propaganda about border crossers member and the necessity to stand up for america they hit by a client center and so they would show up there well-meaning people for the most part from who were actually in their concern was that you know america is being changed forever by illegal immigration a and that was for china for a make character in this book though sort of it is Canada Border watches for to she really believe she was gonna save America from illegal immigrants and did to the extent that she thought there was such a problem that she basically started a criminal enterprise to find her activities yeah yes she will to rate rose pretty quickly in a race for the Minutemen too quickly for the local guys here who a who she got into conflicts with but Chris Simcox promoter to leadership to the state here in washington and then a turnaround a couple months later the fired her insurer awsome a she went often formed her own organization air called Minutemen American defense and what she did buy them SIM cards and Jim Gilchrist the other cofounder that actually become rivals a they no longer cooperated and actually hear each other's guts had for then they become Sourav rivals for the same server troops that each wanted and China's essentially through in with the Gilchrist faction ago Christian basically made outsource dollars Border Watch operations shana at her her little outfit which he called Minutemen American defense and would promote you know math activities on the website as well sidon whenever anybody approached him about well how can I go to a Border Watch he would direct them to Shana and in fact that appears to be how she met the gunman in these murders Jason Busch it appears that she was introduced to bush by the Jim Gilchrist so know when the Sun these a different factions develop I mean is it is it mean who is it just personality or is it just you know I you know as part of this minimum an organization but they really just don't seemed to hate latinos enough iron a sort of were just a little bit to pro Canadian some to start my own more hateful haiti's or something you know a lot of it had to do with the huge egos said that do this movement attracted the movement itself was bound to attract a lot a dysfunctional people because it was itself kinda the psychopathic appeal it was all you know totally devoid of empathy for other peel for other people it's all about scapegoating a vulnerable minority it's all about a you know blaming other blaming other people for all the nations problems and also incredibly paranoid and angry a bellicose in almost everything so they naturally attracted bellicose angry parent homemade love man who not only who suspected each other's motives constantly I'll and work %uh you know the the it barely had begun in April 2005 before the whole movement started falling apart ever come to the story a nativism in this country in general I mean it was true the Ku Klux *** back from the 1920s to and the Notre Dame's back in the eighteen sixties that that they couldn't keep together because the worst so publisher so internally dysfunctional hand love that is the apart at the end that whole archer things is that yet once you have be developers are a critical mass in the sink splinter apart an aspirin apart smaller factions that result are always more radical and violent and dangerous and that is indeed what happened with the Minutemen and that's because they have to compete for really that the crazy factors that in a mean there's a deep yeah the yeah that ripped well minutes the you know it I guess the old adage that he can bring it together but it could be you really need to have some trust to make their relationship work the your long-term show art well so tell us were briefly I am what were the I'll the Shana Ford a in the story of her a basically assassinating a junior floor as in his in his daughter the be senator I am and in in in this was the beginning of the end %uh at least the brand rate Amina is it yeah a the world if course the movement had been its in a state of constant BK really since April 2005 a by spring 2009 that was so loving a lot a you know they still have you still have these Minutemen organizations misery still doing occasional border watches down there and particularly shot I was doing Border Watch down there and shoot em up with this idea she wanted to fire ants they're on the Arizona border and use it as a sort of training compound for a super militia that she envisioned Super Mega Man you know who we're going to go out and train at night vision goggles and high-tech gear and they were gonna find em she wanted to finance all that she actually outlined his plan to Jim Gilchrist in I think 2007 the she wanted to do it by a ripping up drug cartels in the drug houses and taking their drugs and money and using that money to buy land by their guns and equipment were and you know she had this in the back room I but of course you really never was able to come up with a very any kind of money to do it and really didn't have any idea where to begin as far as Harry the drug cartels she came back to Everett Washington mem fall 2008 and found that her husband John's Ford was divorcing her a after eight years drivers are fourth husband and he just had enough time for being completely gone from the relationship and let you know but there was fine with china because the marriage was over but some XIV been talking with the lawyers just term in that you know John died intestate she said to gain about half a million dollars which would solve all over money problems and so three days before Christmas a 2008 she had a boyfriend her new boyfriend go over to John's house and yes he shot up five times and a John inconveniently though survived and was in a coma for a month and a half plan in the meantime the ever police completely botched the case a jungle on the phone with the dispatcher at that show up for work did this to me and a this but he was unconscious by the time detectives arrived on the scene and the interview China for a couple of hours and then I'll let her go and then she pope she's hung around town for a couple more months and then disappeared back down there so to and when she did she a went back to her planned a and hooked up other cartel de Don the Tanah Merah barker's owner a named Albert Gaxiola and get see all 0 was a small-time cartel go for but to and he had a local guy in town that he to competitor who he wanted to get revenge in your florist and so Sarah fell and was left with this plan to repost with her tell drug houses send she was looking for targets and boy he him who exactly that are if he won over here and that was the whole junior Flores a bit older that the there is like three million dollars in drugs and money in this house and she believed that the but actually uses his private homes junior forrest was a marijuana smuggler hit then in the he came from a longtime family down there that have been a smuggling across the Mexican border simply a team seventies think it was airline business and have to understand that there that will town of in the middle of nowhere smuggling is very much them way of life sensei eighteen seventies and people who live around it most part in the same so locally junior was just a local businessman he was pretty well regarded and his wife was very well known she worked at the global grocery store and the two little girls that he had were a much beloved the these so is close walked into person to their house at after midnight one night pretending to be Border Patrol a and shot junior and then shot his wife Gina but she was shot fatally she laid out a grounder pretended to be dead and the daughter 9-year-old daughter who was in the living room woke up to that time that sergio has been shot them and started pleading for her life and eventually they shot her after they ascertain that the second daughter was not in the house seriously mister grandparents at night so from event so gene the wife got up and called 911 when she felt these guys have left and you can hear the 911 call when gino up because for a about half a minute into the conversation China for walked back into the house to retrieve the ak-47 that Albert Gaxiola had left sitting on the kitchen stove and she you can hear shout you know they're coming back in the coming back here and she read into the kitchen and grabbed a pistol the junior had left sitting on the counter there a collapsed in a heap in the corner because she had been shot in the leg and huddled in the corner and then when Jason Busch came back in to try to finish the job she fired back a manage to graze Jason Busch in the leg here n howling from the house and leaving a lovely DNA trail for detectives to find the next day so they had these people a in jail was in about two weeks once a tracked down and in in n/a everyone's trying to YouTube run from the the moniker minimum oh yeah yet I mean course both SIM card the same person 'cause tried to pretend that hit chased her out over I love management organization when in fact here please wish I am trying hard to keep a receptor that his organization and then Jim Gilchrist turned around and said all readers had minimal contact with her a which was just a bald-faced lie every last thinks idea before she got arrested in down to Glenn Spencer's ranch what she sent out an email to Jim Gilchrist to talk about their plans for that for on the border watches they were gonna do in the fall I'll so you know is he was it almost daily contact us with Gilchrist and a book by a their phone or email so what happens to you the energy that surrounded the Minutemen a minute it I mean the the did these people who were sort of associated with this movement they just sorta merge into the Tea Party I mean it its it's interesting that in the course love I love the is I mean I guess to a certain extent the reason why we don't hear as much about these type up patrols on the border is because border crossings are police said you know relatively speaking it is a.m. very serious low ebb mean the net I love immigrants coming from Mexico seems to be net negative at this point I even though we are now it's sorta debating immigration or her have been well the me basically the republican position here now is the Tea Party position on immigration and that's it we must secure the borders first before we can allow these twelve million people to become citizens a and the only way it seems where you at the mall what do you mean by securing the border apparently to involved a building fortress-like fence along the entire Mexican border in staffing at every 20 herds with somebody a.m. play seems stormtroopers & report you know the from their site as near as I can tell that's what they mean by securing the borders because that seems to be what they propose three LIF the Senate bill that that emerged one of the reasons that so far is that it so heavily militarized as the border has a process and processors trying to get enough Republican votes a and their spending billions and billions and billions of dollars I mean something like that they're starting out with just forty five billion dollars to try to build this fortress typeset along their increased staffing on the border and you know course its very telling that they only want to do this on the Mexico border right when they talk about securing the border they're only talking about the Mexico border but in fact would be over to the if you're talking really about national security and border security the roots farmer problematic as always been the Canadian border but from that who but not for these people because what they're more concerned about is the invasion a brown people feel if thats sorry that that's what to when you hear them talk about border security it's just a rubric assist code word for cheap out the brown people a at any rate yet lo these Glenn Spencer you know sleeve name as a leading figure in the Tea Party down there in Arizona he brings then served or pyro and Russell Pearce in all these guys I and they have the they have tea party by refuse down there lens ranch and stuff like that at it's all about in this is basically the old minuteman position has been adopted in whole by the Tea Party in a is their two positions are indistinguishable and because the Tea Party runs the house it's basically to position the the mass number republicans right now sis is what to position from the border britain's concocted by these mavis minimum surgery unhealthy situation because you know nativist they don't really propose solutions the in fact seem to pose problems so now now a bit me to look at this sort have you know the the silver lining here I mean I you know we have obviously had these native his movements in this country I love very for as long as his country has existed in is the is the good news that I am it is much harder to enlist people into this order the violent I am I the into the sort of translating these beliefs into violence verses rhetoric I mean are we seeing this are we seeing it watered down in some way well for with the what happens actually is a the other shoe on what happened with the Minutemen is that yes they do get watered down but they also become more virulent and violence in the process arm there are no more minutemen down there there are still some border militias but they don't call themselves minuteman because that brand name has been permanently tainted by by Shawna Forde now the take up names like pit reporter alliance and and they have various you know Border Watch names with know the views from a minute there anymore I and inevitably these tend to be very small outfits a I mean what a shirt or Pyros deputies recently got into a drawdown of a couple oh these militiamen down there and the border and around the web and and I'm getting word from folks for I know who work in Arizona on the border that ther actually still significant about us border militia activity going on down there but it's all these small guys and there are much more radical much more dangerous because they don't have a national organization that there had terrible to anymore right they just have themselves and they can go out there and and hunt immigrants all they liked and that's apparently what they're doing a so that they actually seem to there's I think going to %uh to some ways the problem is worse because sup people the people were out there on the border now are just sitting out and chairs and trying to get reporters they're out there with guns and scopes and looking for people crossing the border re well a 108 now word author event hell followed with her crossing the dark side of the American border I really appreciate you taking the time today to talk about this really press P to work and iPad appreciate the hear from thanks so much for having me on Sam it's always good to talk