Dr. Dorothy Morrison And Carly on Teaching Students with Dyslexia

>> SARA KERSTEN: So without much further ado we'll go ahead and let Dr. Morrison Okay whenever you are ready. >> DR. DOROTHY MORRISON: Let me turn up the mic. Can you hear me? Okay if you can't hear just raise your hands. About three years ago I had pneumonia, which left with me partially paralyzed vocal cords. So I don't have a strong voice but I'm very passionate about my topic so feel free to raise your hand or let me know that you can't hear. In addition, can you hear me? Okay. In addition as you can see we are videotaping. So those of you in this area [gestures], if you don't want to be on the videotape then go over there. You will be asked to sign permission forms so we can use this video. Okay. We are here today to talk about dyslexia. Let me just, in fact, let me go over here and use this board for a minute. I want to put dyslexia into perspective for you, there is a very interesting article by Gough and Tunman and it's called "A Simple View of Reading " and I think they put this whole condition in perspective. We define reading as 'decoding' times 'linguistic comprehension'. Now they have changed linguistic to 'language comprehension', and the 'times' up here is very critical. If you have one plus zero, what do you have? >> AUDIENCE: One. >> DR. MORRISON: One. If you have one times zero, what do you have? >> AUDIENCE: Zero. >> DR. MORRISON: Zero. So you see how important it is - times is. If you have decoding without comprehension, that's not reading. If you have comprehension without decoding, that's also not reading. So they drew - a simple diagram :this is high, this is low, this is decoding and this is linguistic comprehension. Dyslexia fits here. If you have someone who struggles to decode . . . Oh - thank-you. . . . but appears to be fairly bright and competent, this is dyslexia. If you have someone who struggles with decoding and comprehension - this is what we would call a 'garden variety' struggling reader. That's actually the term that's used in research - they call it 'garden variety' struggling reader , low-decoder and then low-comprehender. These are often kids that have not been exposed to books or who just for some reason or another would rather play video games then get involved with books. Its not necessarily a socio-economic status the determines this, but it can. Now - we have this group too - who are low comprehension but are high encoders. These kids - this here - these kids are hyper-lexic. In my experience, these kids are the hardest to teach. These kids can decode - they can decode anything you give them, but they don't comprehend what they read. And often because they can decode, teachers are fooled. And often because dyslexics have such good comprehension they can make smart comments in class, teachers don't belief they have a reading disability. Now there's not a lot known about this particular group, but the teaching methodology for these three groups has to be different. These kids require heavy emphasis on comprehension, a language-rich intervention for teaching. Where as these kids have the language skills but not the comprehension; they require multi-scensory structured language intervention. So the teachers have to be able to teach to all possible types in their class. And then of course you have the - let's just complete the triangle here - you have the kids who do it all well, who are going to learn no matter what you do. So with this background because this particular group of dyslexics have been so - I'm not sure where that came from - they tend to be bored in school because their so bright. Most of them are average or above average intelligence. They learn coping skills and they do very well, but there does come a point - if they're not identified - were they hit a wall. And this wall can occur - in Carly's case in 9th grade - we've had other students who hit the wall in the 5th grade. Often it's younger than that like 4th or 5th grade when the reading load tends to become so heavy that they just cannot keep up. So whether you're early childhood, or childhood. Whether you're a math, PE major or music major, it doesn't matter. You still by mandate now by the Ohio Board of Regions have to understand dyslexia and how to spot it in the classroom. And how to refer those kids to get the help that they need. Plus - you should have enough tools for your kid to know how to attack instruction for those kids. Okay? Good so far? This legislation is very recent - it was passed in 2011, December. And I think it comes into full affect in 2014. So if you get a teachers license anywhere in the state of Ohio, next year or after, you have to demonstrate a learnedness of dyslexia. And I think you also should be able to discriminate a particular kind of reading problem that the kids are having. All reading is for 'maybe' - okay? Now obviously there's no reason to read if you can't understand it -but these kids need to be taught the structure of language, these kids don't. These kids need taught both the structure of language and how to comprehend it. These kids may need some comprehension strategies, or they may just need some compensation. Okay - now. Do any of you have actual experience with dyslexia? Will you erase that - so she can use it later thank-you. Any of you have friends, family - yes? >> FEMALE STUDENT: I'm dyslexic . >> DR. MORRISON: Oh your dyslexic? Oh great - can you tell us what it's like - what your have struggles been like? >> FEMALE STUDENT: Um . . . mines mostly like - when I'm writing, there are certain words that every single time I will spell them wrong, like no matter how many times. Like I'll spell 'first' wrong all the time, and 'else' and 'answer' I'll split my letters every single time. Um - when I'm reading to somebody - I'll flip everything out loud -so I don't like reading out loud. But my comprehension is really good, it's just . . . >> DR. MORRISON: But you fit, don't you? Comprehension is really high, but she struggles with letters. Now, about 14% of the kids with dyslexia fit this pattern, with the letters reversed. Most of them have a problem that's in their brains, which is not as visible as this switching letters. And that is - they have trouble connecting the letters to the sounds in their heads. Let me pull up a couple of videos for you guys just to show you briefly what we're talking about. Sara what time is class over? >> SARA KERSTEN: I'm sorry? >> DR. MORRISON: What time is class over? >> SARA KERSTEN: Um . . .10:55. >> DR. MORRISON: Okay - just wanted to remind myself, we should be okay though. Okay - hold on just a minute while I pull this up here. Okay Sara I might need your help here. See if you can pull up that video for me. Okay. So the person that's featured well - not quite yet . . . [INAUDIBLE] Okay - did you have trouble in school? >> FEMALE STUDENT: Me? >> DR. MORRISON: Yeah. When were you diagnosed? >> FEMALE STUDENT: Um - like 8th grade, 9th grade. >> DR. MORRISON: 8th grade, 9th grade okay. How did you get that far - without being diagnosed? >> FEMALE STUDENT:My mom would sit and do homework with me every single night, and she would read. And eventually she was just like, "you don't need to be re-listening to this". >> DR. MORRISON: So at that point - you discovered that you didn't need her - you needed something else. >> FEMALE STUDENT:Yeah. >> DR. MORRISON: Okay thank-you. >> DR. MORRISON: We have to get past the ads first. [AD PLAYS] >> VIDEO: I wonder what [STOP] >> VIDEO: it feels like for a first time child sitting in a class and suddenly discovers that he or she can't do what everyone else around them is doing. >> GRAEME HAMMON: I had a terrible time reading. My teachers at school couldn't understand it. They thought I was a bright student but I simply could not read. >> KAREN SANTUCCI: I always felt a little bit different going through school. I remember even at an early age having anxiety. I was never the one who volunteered to read out loud, or give a speech, or go to a speech class. >> DAVID BOIES:You measure yourself against other children. And when you can't read nearly as well as your classmates, it is something that is very disturbing. >> WHOOPI GOLDBERG: I knew as a kid there were a lot of things that were different just about how my mind seemed to work. But you know when you are seven or eight you just think woo-hoo. >> SKY LUCAS: I wanted to talk to the principle and I asked him am I dumb? Is this not the right place for me? >> CHARLES SCHWAB: I discovered that my youngest son and I shared the same problem, and he was in second grade and I was about 40. >> DELOS COSGROVE: I was about 34 years old and I was dating a teacher and I was trying to read the paper and I was having very difficulty reading because I don't read well. She finally said, you're dyslexic. >> SALLY SHAYWITZ: Dyslexia is what's called a hidden disability so you don't see any signs and children seem to be - and are - bright in every other way. >> ROSE LOVE: What happens is on the page there is so many words and then it's black and white so everything is just swirling around so I can hardly keep track. >> CHARLES SCHWAB: I see a bunch of foreign code - and so I have to go thru each word to decode it, and turn it into sound in your mind, and then of course that gives meaning. >> SALLY SHAYWITZ: The definition of Dyslexia is an unexpected difficulty in reading in comparison to their intelligence, level of education or professional status. Dyslexics have difficulty learning to read and the inability to read quickly. Difficulty in spelling. Difficulty with hand-writing. But the basic core problems involve reading - and getting to the sounds of words. >> DAVID BOIES: When children are young, they associate reading with intelligence. And reading is simply one way we accumulate information. It does not have anything to do with how we process that information. How we process that information is far more important. The kind of person we are, the kind of contribution we'll make, the kind of utility we have for society. >> GERALYN LUCAS: When I saw Sky and how depressed she was and how she thought she was dumb and didn't believe in herself, I just thought I was losing her. >> MUIR MEREDITH: You know - the discovery of dyslexia for a student and for their family is a journey. It begins usually with a caring teacher who says something like, "I think I see the problem", and directs the parent to an assessment. >> WHOOPI GOLDBERG: The truth is - parents can catch a lot of things - but you really don't know it until you're in school. A teacher can watch you progress on a daily basis. And if someone you discover maybe has dyslexia you go 'ohhh okay. You and I - we got a journey'. >> SALLY SHAYWITZ: What we now know is that you can be quite intelligent and still read very slowly. And in fact - if we look at the top tier of any profession - writers, people in cinema, physicians, Nobel Price Laureates, attorneys, people in business and finance - there's a disproportionately high number of people who are dyslexic. People who are dyslexic are not going to be as sequential, very literal thinkers. They're going to be out-of-the-box thinkers. >> STEPHEN SPIELBERG: It was only 4 years ago that I was diagnosed with having a childhood - and adult - dyslexia. When I found this out I was shocked - but what was really proven to me was that I had suffered thru this my entire life - and I was so relieved. Because all those years of terror - standing up in reciting or going to the blackboard and spelling - it was incredible the amount of relief I felt. And then I got angry. You know - why did I have to spend so many years not knowing about myself? Why couldn't somebody have brought my parents and I into the fold of knowledge - back when they could have done something about it? >> CRAIG WATKINSON: One of the things that is unfortunate with children in public schools is that because you have one teacher trying to organize a classroom with 35 students - you might even realize that that student is probably dyslexic - that student might also be dyslexic. But you simply - in the course of your day - are not able to give them the accommodations that they need. And I think there's nothing more heartbreaking then that. [VIDEO STOPS] >> DR. MORRISON: We're going to stop this here because I think that gives you the idea. Now the woman who was speaking - Doctor Shaywitz - is the woman. She is the medical doctor who was on the national reading panel - and she is a specialist in pediatric neurology. She is a professor at Yale University. She's the one who's done brain scans that have helped us in the last fifteen to twenty years firmly identitify Dyslexia and what the characteristics are. So there is another little piece with her on it. That shows some of the brain work she has done. So I'm going to do that and then I'll introduce Carly. While we are waiting do any of you have questions? Comments? Any of the rest of you have friends or relatives who are dyslexic? >> STEPHANIE: I have a close friend who is dyslexic and he always spelled my name wrong. Which I didn't know he was Dyslexic for a really long time. Like he would be on my Facebook page and my name is like right there and he always thought Stephaien instead of Stephanie and I was like why are you doing this? Like I don't get it. So but like he's like really smart. >> DR. MORRISON: Exactly, exactly and this is the hidden tragedy of this. In the public schools in Ohio and elsewhere across the nation. Although there are some states that are slightly better at this. In the 19-the 1980s I think it was 85 Texas- [VIDEO INTERUPTS] >> DR. MORRISON: To identify dyslexic and to treat it, and not necessarily to go into Special Ed. In fact they are procedure is to first identify the student and give them a 504 Plan and then decide if they have other problems that necessitate Special Ed, because Special Ed is not always the place for these kids. They should stay in the classroom, they learn so much by listening that they absolutely should not be taken into an environment where less is expected from them. So that means the classroom teachers have to, kind of learn how to accommodate not how to be interventionist but at least how to accommodate. Okay let's watch. >> VIDEO: I wonder what it feels like the first time - [VIDEO STOPS] >> ANCHOR: Dyslexia is very common in fact one in five people and impacts both spoken and written language our next guest says dyslexia is a paradox because most people who will have it are both smart yet read slowly. In her upcoming book Overcoming Dyslexia, Dr. Sally Shaywitz shines a clarifying light on the symptoms and treatment for dyslexia. Dr. Sally Shaywitz is with me here now. Hi how are you? It's good to see you. Now when did the book come out? >> SALLY SHAYWITZ: It came out a couple of years ago. >> ANCHOR: Couple of years ago. Okay so now how's the, what's the reception of the book been like? >> DR. SHAYWITZ: Oh it's been fabulous. Our hardcover came out first and then it's in it's 18th printing and the paperback is now in it's 14th printing. And people say this is about me, now I understand, you've helped me as nothing as has because dyslexia is very common but it's a hidden disability. So so many people think they know, but they don't. Science has made extraordinary progress and the idea behind my book, behind our scale set of dyslexia criteria is to shine a light on that scientific progress so we can better for people who are dyslexic. >> ANCHOR: So you say that dyslexia is an unexpected difficulty in reading. Now what do you mean by that an unexpected difficulty? >> DR. SHAYWITZ: Yeah that in our society we assume that if you are very smart, you are going to be a very good reader and that if you are a very good reader, you must be very smart. And that's true if you are not dyslexic. But in the case of dyslexia you can be very smart, very motivated, try really hard, but you can't read-particularly can't read quickly or automatically. So it's unexpected in relation to the person's age, intelligence, grade level, and professional status. >> ANCHOR: Now let's talk about some of the very famous people who are dyslexic. >> DR. SHAYWITZ: Well there are-- for example Carol Greider, Dr. Carol Greider she won the Nobel Prize in Medicine just this past November. She is very dyslexic and what's interesting about that, Greider, is that she had trouble getting into grad school. She was rejected from 12 of 14 programs, not because she wasn't smart, but only because she couldn't finish her GRE. So she scored poorly, and people took that as a measure of her ability. But two schools, University of California Berkley and Cal Tech had the good sense to go further and accepted her and you know what she did her Nobel Prize winning work there. >> ANCHOR: Oh my gosh. >> DR. SHAYWITZ: David Boies, we all heard on the news today that the ban on gay marriage in California was overturned. Well one of the two attorneys that argued that was David Boeis probably the most narrated attorney in America he's dyslexic. Dr. Stuart Yudofsky he was the chair of Psychology at Baylor and has written 30 books or edited, he's very dyslexic. >> ANCHOR: Now tell us a little about what's going on with the brain when people have dyslexia? >> DR. SHAYWITZ: Okay well we've been very very fortunate because there has been a new technology called function magnetic residence imaging. If any of the people watching have ever had an MRI, it's like that but smarter. So you can ask someone to read and see what's happening in the brain. And so I think right what people are seeing is on the left is the left side of the brain and you can see there are three areas that are highlighted. One in the front of the brain that's green and two in the back. So when a typical reader reads those three areas become activated or working. When a dyslexic person reads the area in the front becomes super activated the green. But take a look those two areas in the back are not activated. What's important, especially that area in yellow is called the Wernicke Area and that area is the area that allows people to read automatically. You know it's a pleasure you see the word. [Noise] You don't even think about it because it's automatic. >> ANCHOR: Now tell us how it also affects the spoken word. >> DR. SHAYWITZ: Well people are, may not be aware of is that reading is based on a foundation of spoken language. So the primary difficulty really is hearing the individual sounds in spoken language. So people who are dyslexic hear them fuzzily and not as clear and crisp so for example someone is put on the spot for a test. Tell me the five reasons. They may have explained it to their peers and know it really well but when it comes time to pull out the right word they go "um" "uh" or they may say a word that sounds like it. I'll give you another example a little girl was in school and her teacher showed her a picture of a volcano and the teacher said to her what's this? And she says it's a vol-tornado. And the teacher says don't you know what a torna--- a volcano is? And when she heard it she said oh of course it's a mountain with a big hole. So she knows it but if you rely on her ability to read it quickly or to say it quickly you are going to mistakenly think she can't. When she can when this little girl is dyslexic. >> ANCHOR: How about the Sea of Strengths model? Explain that to us. >> DR. SHAYWITZ: Okay well the Sea of Strength grew out of our priest understanding of what dyslexia is all about. And what it is, it's not only a reading problem, it's a whole way of thinking, a good way of thinking. So what we have developed- >> ANCHOR: I think we have a shot of the Sea of Strengths model. Can we bring that up on the screen? There we go. >> DR. SHAYWITZ: So we conceptualize the Sea of Strengths and that's discussed in my book Overcoming Dyslexia is this encapsulated weakness so that the person reads slowly. Nor biologically can they help that their brain is wired that way. That at the same time there is that weakness is surrounded by a Sea of Strengths in higher level thinking and reasoning. So for example reasoning, concept formation, creative thinking, problem solving, critical thinking, all these higher level skills. People who are dyslexic have their, to an extraordinary degree and are never measured in school. So the goal is to identify the weakness identify the strength but mediate the weakness but make sure the person who is dyslexic can access those strengths. And you do that most prominently by understanding one that spoken language is going to be full of glitches and pauses and also by providing accommodations on tests that is people who are dyslexic, the way their brains work they can't help it. It's not that they aren't smart- >> ANCHOR: Do they need a little more time on tests? >> DR. SHAYWITZ: They need extra time. As- go ahead. >> ANCHOR: I just really wanted to, I just wanted- >> DR. MORRISON: I'm going to stop this here. There is just a thirty-second clip that I wanted to show you. It's an animation but I think you'll get a very clear idea of how the springs work and as you've already heard -okay go to- it will actually see how dyslexics struggle to make sense of this. And it's kind of glitzy but I think it puts the point across. [AD PLAYS] [VIDEO PLAYS] >> DR. MORRISON: Okay does that kind of help you see what happening? A Dyslexic child is searching all over their brain for answers. Where as someone who reads typically this goes beep beep boop and this is a very quick process between the three parts of the brain here is so efficient that you can recognize four words per second. That's how fast the neurons connect with each other in the efficient reader. But in a dyslexic reader because they are searching for the meaning, searching for the sound with the letters, it takes them much longer. And sometimes with older children the main symptom of dyslexia is slow reading. They may be very accurate but they are slow because of this process. Okay any questions so far? Alright Carly so you can take this off. Turn it off. This is Carly. She's in - where do you want her to stand? >> ALEX: She's fine. >> DR. MORRISON: You're fine. She's in ninth grade, she is dyslexic, she's a little nervous this morning which is understandable to come to a college class and talk about this. Let me tell you something about Carly and she can explain this a little bit later I first became aware that Carly was dyslexic last October and it was right before I went to a conference in Baltimore where Sally Shaywitz a Professor from Yale was the speaker and after her speech I went up to her and I said I have a student who has such a disconnect between letters and sounds that she has assigned numbers to the letters and then she assigns the sounds to the numbers and that's how she figures things out. And I said what would you advise that I do? And she just looked at me and said I've never heard of such a thing. So Carly and I have been on an adventure to discover what works for her and what doesn't work for her and she can talk more about that, so do you want to start? >> CARLY: So I found out I was dyslexic this year. I kind of knew for a while that I was and like the video said it's probably the saddest thing trying to grow up being dyslexic because you do think you are really dumb. It sucks. No I guess not, I'm being told I'm not. >> DR. MORRISON: She had straight A's through junior high, one A-. When she got to high school she was placed in Honors courses and she still carries close to an A- average now even with the Dyslexia and all of her problems so trust me she is a smart kid. >> CARLY: So growing up what goes through your head is, it's true you see those people in class reading so fast and you're just like oh I wish I could do that I'd feel so smart. So you beat yourself down a lot. So now I have Dorothy telling me of I missed 12.8 I'm so smart I got this and you really have to boost your confidence up. I still don't have the confidence I should about it but I'm working on it. >> DR. MORRISON: Do you want to tell them what the 12.8 is? >> CARLY: I'm not really sure. >> DR. MORRISON: Let me see if I can-here pull this up. These are Carly's tests. Let me just explain this list a little bit. She - you have to be below 85 in this poll to qualify for services in school. She has one score that's below an 85. Everything else shows that she is an average candidate and this 12.8 this was taken when she was in the second month of the ninth grade. This 12.8 is her listening comprehension. So if I were to read to her and ask her questions she could handle the material at a 12.8 grade level which is 3 grade levels above. Yes. >> FEMALE: How many of the categories does she need to fall below that 85? Just one? >> DR. MORRISON: That's a good question. It depends on the category. In this case, if you look at the fluency rate up here, it's below the first percentile. Carly, why don't you explain to them the system that you developed to read, and then I'll come back and answer your question? So, when you were little, and you started to realize that you didn't read the way everybody else did. >> CARLY: Can I draw it on the board? >> DR. MORRISON: Sure! >> CARLY: Ok. So, I don't know why any of this is how it is, so it's kind of confusing to me, but like if I read the word 'land' I can't sound it out on my own - well, now I can because I know visual phonics which helps, but what I have to do to find the sound of each letter - I have to assign a number to it. So, like 'A' would be 1. So 'A' was 1. 'N' is the 14th letter in the alphabet, so it's 14. 'D' is 4th in the alphabet, and 'L' is 12th. So, I only have 1 sound for every letter, so 'L' would be "ulll," depending on the day, 'A' is 'ayy' or 'ahh'. And then, 'N' "unn" and 'D' "duhh". So, it could either be "laned" or "land". If I had a good day it would be "land" and I could figure it out. But then after I sound it out, it takes me like 20 seconds if I don't have- Well now I'm learning sign language to help me process words faster, but it would take me like 20 seconds to figure out what the word meant. So, I think the number was - like the average kid could read 250 words per minute, and I read 15, so I'm a little less. >> DR. MORRISON: So, because of her fluency, because of this very awkward process. Carly has accommodations. She has a 504 in place, and she's getting accommodations. Let me show you this. This was the spelling test that we gave her as part of the assessment that we did in the reading quiz. You can see the numbers above the letters, and these are non-words, they're pseudo-words. She did very well as you can see on her scores. Given enough time, this system works for her. She got good comprehension. She got good scores, but she was absolutely miserable. But, you go ahead and talk all about what your experience was with dyslexia. How was it discovered? >> CARLY: Okay, so first of all, this test was the worst thing ever. It took me 3 hours of sitting in a room and trying to like - I was exhausted by the end of it. It was a nice nap when I got home. But, I got to 9th grade and I was really frustrated because it was like 4.0's through middle school, easy getting through, didn't read any of the books, listened to class discussions, and I could write an essay on it. But, I got there, we had to read Beowulf on our own. and that book is killer, and I just talked to my teacher one day, and I was like, "I can't really read that well. Could you help me out or something?" And he brought a Special Ed teacher down, and she said, "You should probably get this checked out." So lucky enough we're family friends with Dr. Morrison, and I got the test pretty quick and this came out that I was pretty dyslexic. But the thing that was kind of frustrating about it. And since you guys are like future teachers, my teacher came and he honestly didn't think I was telling the truth about dyslexia. Like he told my parents he thought I was lying. And, that's really hard because when you finally come out, and you're like, "I can't read" and everyone else can. Like I should be able to, and having someone doubt you so hard, that's like the worst thing ever because that's what I was most afraid of. I have 4 super-smart brothers, and I'm not that smart - well, in reading, I'm not as fast. [Carly laughing] So, I was just scared to admit that I couldn't do it. Finally he did admit to my parents, he was sorry that he said it. But whenever kids come to you, and they tell you something like that, with all your heart try to believe them, and as weird as it might be, they're probably telling you the truth, and if they're not you can deal with that later, but just hope they're telling the truth because they probably are. >> DR. MORRISON: Okay, how did you get that far? How did you fight through it? And, even with your parents, as you said your 4 older brothers are very high achievers. This is a family that values education. How did you fake it for so long with your teachers and your parents? >> CARLY: Well, every night, I would get done around 7, 8 with my homework, then I'd just watch TV shows with my mom and dad, and then I would go up to my room around 10 because that's like my bed time. I would do my homework until 3AM in the morning, and that got really, really rough because I have a church class now that starts at 6, and then I would get on average 3 hours of sleep, and it finally caught up with me. So, that was one way I just had my homework done with. I got through that. Like, one worksheet would take me about an hour a piece. Except math, that was fast because it's just numbers. And, then also, you know in elementary school how you have the reading tests? My teachers had 3 books, and they would let us choose out of them. So, I would sit by the door because I would always be next, and whoever was in front of me, I would listen to what book they chose. And then, I could hear what they said, memorize it, and then just look at the page like I was reading and say it. So, that's how I got through the reading tests. OAA's and stuff, they have the simple words :to, the - cross those out, what, who, when, where - cross those out. So you have the key words. For the reading sections, you just take the key words and look back and see where they use that word, and then they usually have passages like, when he did this, what was the consequence? So, you take that part, and then it will just match up with one of the answers. So, that's how I got through that part. Essays, we would usually have to read books. We would either read them in class or talk about them and discuss them. I would just write my essay on whatever we discussed the most. And then, for - I'm trying to think what else we had. Oh, for study guides, my teachers were pretty nice with that. They would pretty much have the same answers, just in different forms on the study guide that were on the test. So, if I just memorize - I would set up number patterns, so once I translate it into numbers, I would see that number pattern in my head, and then once I saw it on the test, I could just be like - oh, that equals this. And then, that number pattern would be like 'C' or something. So, yeah. >> DR. MORRISON: Okay. Yeah. You can't be dumb and figure out this system. It's the most elaborate system I've ever seen, and apparently the most elaborate that Sally Shaywitz had ever heard of as well. Do you guys have questions for Carly? I want to leave plenty of time for her to answer questions. >> FEMALE: Right now, in our class, we're learning how to do assessments, like reading assessments with kids, and I'm just wondering, were you given like running records, did your teachers do running records with you? That's where you read out loud and they mark what you say. Did you have to do that when you were younger? It was probably a long time ago but I'm just trying to think how you would get through that when you're on the spot. >> CARLY: Yeah, like they usually took us out in the hall like I said before so I could just listen. One nice thing would be just to switch up books. Don't let them have a choice, which probably isn't their preferable thing, but you know it forces you to take out those kids which might be dyslexic. Also for those, if you go in circles or something, I would just read ahead and decode it so I could say it. I might say a couple words, but if I say it out loud, then I can figure out how it's supposed to sound. Also, if you talk enough in class, your teacher gets really annoyed with you and won't ask you to read. [students chuckling] So, it's like, "Oh this is the obnoxious kid who keeps answering my questions." So that's one way I got out of reading. >> FEMALE: How old were you when you came up with this system? >> CARLY: I came up with this system in 5th or 6th grade because in 3rd grade I was still reading the same book I started in 1st grade. And then, in 8th grade, I actually finished my first chapter book, one of the little magic tree house books by myself. >> FEMALE: Did any of your teachers ever know about your number system? Did you write it on tests, and they were like, "Hey Carly, what is this?" >> CARLY: No. >> FEMALE: You just never wrote it down anywhere? >> CARLY: I would usually write it on my hand. So if I would just remember. You can like - I don't know, I could always feel what I had written if it was like a little short word or something. >> FEMALE: Gotcha. >> CARLY: So, they didn't ever ask. >> FEMALE: I was just wondering. >> CARLY: Yeah. >> FEMALE: So, like, if you were reading 'land', what would it look like? Do the letters, or like..." >> CARLY: Yeah, so right now, I have 2 sessions a week with Dr. Morrison for an hour, and then I have 2 sign language which is helping me to get to comprehension, and then once a week on Tuesdays I have visual eye therapy at OSU because words flip. I can do it if. >> DR. MORRISON: If you heard Charles Schwab on the tape, he said as soon as he got to the sound, he could figure out what the word was. Well, we thought that would solve it for Carly. She got to the sound in 2 sessions. She picked up visual phonics so fast, and she was able to create the sound. And then, I was stunned when she turned to me and said "When are we going to talk about what these words mean?" And, I thought, "Wait, if I say them, you get it, but if you say them, you don't?" And, that's exactly the process. We still are not quite sure exactly why that's the case, but we're trying to work through it. Carly needs a visual and a kinesthetic cue to get to the meaning. Just the sound of the letter alone is not enough. So, if you want to show them - One day we had the word 'land'. >> CARLY: Ok, I'll do 2 things :So, first, for 'land' that's what I would do when I used to, but to find the meaning, I would always have to think of the last time I heard it, so I would write out the word on my table or something, like on the back of my hand, and then I thought this was last week when we did this I think. The last time I heard it was in Mr. Stock's class when we were reading the book, Beowolf, and I saw the word 'land' on line 1,296. It was like the 7th word in the row, and then it would be like 'grass' or something. And, that's how I would get to it. And, now what I do is, to sound out a word, I have visual phonics. So, 'L' is "ulll", "ahh", "unnn", "duh". That's how I sound out words. Then for me I'm making up my own version of sign language with a tutor. So, the sign for 'land' is that. So, that's just how I'm getting the word processing. If I think of when she did it, and if I see her, and we talked about it, then I get to the meaning faster. What happens is, with dyslexia, what's really scary about it is, for me, since words flip and stuff, I'll have a good day where I'm not tired, and it might look like this. But, my eyes unfocus, and that's what we're working on. If I let my eyes unfocus on a word... Sorry, I have to look at it. It can look like that. So, I have to blink a couple times because my left eye is kind of weak or something and I'm not sure. But if I blink, my eyes don't like to turn in. So it will bounce back from that. And it takes me a while to sound it out. But it's hard when things look like that to get to the right sound. Yeah. >> DR. MORRISON: Questions for Carly about this process? You can see what an amazing memory she has. I wish I would have brought the sign cards that we use because I lay them out. You usually go one-by-one when you work with sight cards, and she picked them up so fast that I started to lay them out with twelves - twelve cards here, and she would go through them. Then I would gather them up, shuffle them, and present them to her randomly, and is there any way that you can show them what you do? >> CARLY: She would just line out - We would have like 15 cards. I think the most we did was 20 at a time, but she goes through, and I point to it, she'll say it, and then we'll maybe do a little sign for it, like 'want' or something. Then, we'll go through with each one, and if I don't know what it means, she tells me what it means. What happened at first, when she didn't know, I could just sound them out real quickly. She would just say, "Okay now you read it." And I would just zoom through it because I had memorized what she had said because I heard it. >> DR. MORRISON: Just to put this in perspective, she can go through these at 240 words per minute after she had heard them one time. She memorized them, and then just went like that. So, go ahead. >> CARLY: And then, what she did since I got smart with that, she would take them away. >> DR. MORRISON: I got smart with that. [Class laughing] >> CARLY: She would take them away, shuffle them, and show them at different times. So, then I came up with - I would memorize where it was on the table. So, if I just pointed there, then I would see it in my head, and I would be like, "Oh that's one". >> DR. MORRISON: Okay, so, pretty amazing memory. Any other questions for Carly? Go ahead. >> MALE: Yeah, I'm just having a little trouble understanding why it's the letters that get jumbled and why numbers are so much easier. >> CARLY: I picked numbers because they all look different. With letters, if you flip a "d", it's a "b". So, if I took it down to numbers, it was a lot easier. And if they flipped, then it would be faster to take apart. >>FEMALE: I've always been really good at math. I've always kind of used numbers to decode things too. But when I read, that's what it looks like-like a bunch of scribbles. I had to get bifocals. You said that your eyes actually wouldn't focus on the word. I went to the eye doctor-did you get glasses or anything? That helped me a little bit, it actually helped strengthen my eyes and focus on the words easier, so I don't have to spend time focusing on the word and then decoding it. If your vision helps you focus right away, and see the word how it is, you can skip that part of it. >>CARLY: I went and got my eyes checked. It was a small prescription-nothing really to get filled. So then I got a visual tracking test, which is for this. When I first went to the doctor, they put all those numbers, all the letters on the board and it was just a blurry mess. So they thought I was blind or something-it was bad. But when they singled it out, it would take me a minute but I could get it. So, when I did visual tracking- we have things like a Brock string, which is a really long string that I tie to my doorknob and hold to my nose. It has these little round balls on it. I just move them closer to my face and try to focus. I'm just trying to strengthen my eyes because that's what it is. My eyes just - when I try to focus so hard, they just go everywhere, like that video did. The other thing that we're doing-since my left eye is weak, I put on these 3D glasses and put down a paper that I'm reading. We have a translucent sheet that has green and red stripes, and when one of my eyes stops working, one of the sets turns black, so I cant read anymore. I just have to go like this in front of it. So then usually I just cover this eye and read using that. My eyes are fine, they just don't like focusing. >>FEMALE: So Carly, you said that you assigned each letter a number. But we know that there are more sounds than there are letters. "CH"s, different "scwah" sounds. There are many different, you know 44 different phonemes. So how did you deal with that, and then to Dr. Morrison, how are you working with her on those types of sounds? I guess it's a two-part question. >>CARLY: If it wasn't the word that I sounded out, I had no other way to figure it out. So it was pretty much, get the word, or I'm not going to get the answer to the question. I use the example, I would write down the word popsicle, and if I get it wrong it's pope cycle- two different things in my head, if I figure it out. So I pretty much had - if I didn't get the answer right, it was no hope I couldn't do anything about it. If I don't sound it out right. But Dr. Morrison and me- she is teaching me all the rules to if it's a soft vowel in that word or if it's a hard vowel and that will get me to the right sound. And then I can do the sign that goes with it. But that's really helping. They do have a lot more sounds. And I need visual phonics- Because if I don't use visual phonics and it looks like that, then I don't check myself. The L is this, so I have to connect those to make sure that they look alike. In my head, that's how it works. >>DR. MORRISON: What we tried to mediate with Carly was a system called visual phonics that was actually developed for deaf kids to understand the phonemes of the language. There are forty-four phonemes, and there are only twenty-six letters. So that's where she was running into trouble. One of the very first things that I started to work with her on was a syllable pattern, open and closed syllable patterns so that she could sound out multi-syllabic words. In order to do that, she had to note that the open syllable had long vowel sounds and closed syllables had short vowel sounds. Her comment was, "What? They have two sounds? I hate this language!" Or something like that. I said, yes, but the hand signs are different. If you know the manual alphabet that A, B, C. For the long sounds it's A, E, I, O, U-which is the manual alphabet. And for the short vowels sounds it's A-ah, E-eh, I-ih, O-ah, U-uh. So, by giving her the hand signs, she caught on to this. In fact, I taught her this-just taught her the vowel sounds- and she came back and said, "I want you to teach me the rest of this." So I did. And we went through all 44 signs. The next session, which was tow days later, she came back and she had all of the x sounds, which is really K-S together. So she picked this up, and it was wonderful. I could code the word and she could read. I thought, this is great, we'll just figure out how to code and then fake the sound and see if it will transfer for her. She then came out of that session and said, "I love to read." She could decode. But then she threw this clinker at me, that she has to go through this process to get to the meaning. So, just giving her the sound and the key to the sound is not enough. So we've gone to signs, and we've also gone to morphology, which does seem to help quite a bit. I've noticed a strategy that she uses when she reads. We teach the Greek and Latin roots, we teach the prefixes and suffixes, and those are phonetically regular, so it's easy for her to decode. They're big words, and they appear in the type of reading that she does. She's picked them up very quickly, and that has helped. >>FEMALE: When you listen to people, how often can you hear the different sounds? Like the different "A" sounds? You can hear the difference between "land" and "lane"? But like if someone says "land" it means like this [GESTURES]. Do you memorize that then? Okay I've heard that sound, it was like that different A. Or is it when you see the words you can't connect that with what you've heard before? >>CARLY: So what it is if she talks to me, I get everything. But if I read it, it's blank. There's nothing there. So that's why if I sound it out I can be like, "I've heard this word before, I know it." It's that thing where something's on the tip of your tongue but you just can't come to it. So I have to think through the this. I have to think through the whole process of when I heard it and then I get to the meaning. >>FEMALE: By the time you're done decoding every single word, does the sentence that you just read make sense and come together? Or do you have to re-read the sentence and then re-read the paragraph? >>CARLY: When you say "decoding", is that just like sounding it out or finding the meaning? >>FEMALE: Finding the meaning. >>CARLY: So if I decode - so if I sound out and I find the meaning I'm fine. I might read over it once, we do that just so I get the whole sentence fluid. But if it's just sounding out, then I have no idea. I can read it, but I just don't know what I'm saying. >>DR. MORRISON: If you go back to those brain pictures and the very fast connections that have to be made, she has obviously has developed a different set of connections here. And what we're trying to do now is it establish those connections. The part of the brain that responds to hand signs and to kinesthetic cues. Is right in the middle of that process that phonology. The word, shape, meaning kind of process. It's a split-second process. So this seems to be helping her build these bridges, but she's had eight years to perfect this system that she has, so we're trying to retrain her brain and work with it. In the mean time, she has compensated beautifully. What you have to remember about dyslexia it's not a hearing problem, and it's not a vision problem. Although in her case there were tracking issues which we spotted. As she went to a vision therapist and is getting therapy for that. It's a neurological issue-it's the way her brain works it's the way her brain processes letters and sounds and meaning. >>FEMALE: I'm just wondering if the glasses work at all, because mine don't. That's what I was wondering. Did your visual- you know how they said - you went to the eye doctor and they were trying to do visual type therapy. Does that work-your tests and stuff? >>CARLY: Right now I don't really use glasses. They put me on different kinds of lenses to look through, like +4, which just makes my eyes tighten which is what you don't want to do and it hurts so bad. Last time I played Wii with it. So they make it fun, which is cool. I mean, I haven't really noticed anything yet, because it's only been three weeks. But hopefully it works. We'll just all whatever happens. >>FEMALE: So now that you have been diagnosed and you are getting help, does it still make you nervous to think about what's going to come-like all the classes you're going to take. Is that still nerve-wracking for you? >>CARLY: Yeah, at the beginning, I had a couple of teachers who didn't really help me out. They wouldn't follow my accommodations- some of them is I can have all my tests read to me, and I can have half homework if I need it-if I'm overwhelmed. So right now, we're reading To Kill A Mockingbird. We have to write eight responses, and I only have to write 4, because it takes me a long time to edit what I've written. So it is kind of scary-I don't know if they're going to be welcoming to the idea. The best thing to do is just fulfill the accommodations. I had one teacher who turned tests into videos for me, it would be just her saying it. Or she would make podcasts over the Internet of her lectures. So I can restudy that. Also, my parents have bought me assistive technology that I can use. Have you guys ever heard of Intel readers? I just take a picture and it reads it to me. I also have an Eco-pen, which records class lectures and then I can just listen to them later. I have DragonSpeak on a laptop, so I can talk my essays, and then my Dad just edits them. So it is kind of scary but. >>MALE: This is more directed for you, is assistive technology allowed on SAT and ACT? >>DR. MORRISON: Yes, if you established the pattern in high school, which is what we're trying to work very hard for for Carly. Because if she can have the assistive technology for the SAT or the ACT, I think she'll do just fine. Without it she'll be like the gal who won the Nobel prize but couldn't finish her GRE test. Ok. Any other questions? What have teachers done that helps you? I think you've mentioned a few things there have been. Things that teachers done that hurts you or helps you? Also, I don't think you told this group that you've won a national writing award, which I think is interesting. >>CARLY: In seventh grade, I won a National Scholastic Writing Contest. But we had unlimited time on that, so it's not anything too special. My teachers-they've all helped me in the ways that I've told you. They make my homework easier, and if I ask, they help. But there is one thing that you guys could do if people have accommodations. For me, since I took so long to tell and it was just really - I felt stupid because I had dyslexia and couldn't read as fast as everyone else. It's scary coming up to my teachers, especially the ones that didn't help me in the beginning and be like I need to have you lessen my assignment-they might say no. They shouldn't, but I've had people say no to me before with my teachers and stuff. I mean just - If they are asking for too much, you can lessen is to a certain degree- you don't want people taking advantage of a situation. But for me personally just having help and getting things lessened I don't want to take advantage of that because I like being able to work, actually being able to do my homework well for the first time is really cool. It sounds dorky, because I like doing my homework. But just help out the kids, and be perceptive to whatever they need. >>FEMALE: With the new laws, though, teachers won't be able to tell her "No", correct? They'll have to stick to the accommodations. So, in 2014, if she has a 504 plan, then a teacher's not going to be able to first of all have to know that there's a plan, and second of all they'll have to, you will have to make accommodations ahead of time. You won't be able to tell a child, "No, I'm not going to do that." The more that you can learn as an Education major ahead of time, will help you differentiate instruction and accommodate assignments. >>DR. MORRISON: Right. Yes. >>FEMALE: Wouldn't it be just as fair for your teacher to give you a longer amount of time to do the assignment the same way as everyone else, or would you prefer for it to have it lessened? >>CARLY: I've had that too. If I turn something in a day late or a couple days late and I talk to them about it, they don't take points off for anything. So pretty much that's what I usually go for things late- because I don't like getting lessened because you want to learn stuff just as much as everyone else does. But the thing that's really important about the "No" thing, yeah they won't be allowed to say "No", but they may be so scary walking up to them that you won't want to ask. They might be- they can say it really passive-aggressively "Oh yeah I guess I can do that, but you're going to have to do extra assignments you're going to have to make this up" I've had teachers add extra work on to me because I've asked for time. So I mean just don't be scary! >>DR. MORRIRSON: Any other questions? >>FEMALE: I think I speak for everyone that I'm beyond impressed by the methods that you come up with. How do you find time to fit all of your schoolwork, and all of the work that you're doing with doctors for your eyes, the phonics, and such? How do you fit all of that into your schedule? >>CARLY: Well, before I had accommodations, and people even knew I had dyslexia, I didn't. There were a lot of, in eighth grade I had a big thing with my French teacher. It was horrifying I just stopped doing my homework. Because I finally broke down and was like, "I give up, I can't do it." There were just other things where she was saying that I was lying about things, and I honestly was, but I kept on lying and saying that there were other things because I didn't want to admit it. I lied to my parents about it-it's just sad that I had to. It wasn't a good situation at all. Now it's hard. I get really tired, especially after the eye therapy. Headaches, I get about three headaches a day in school. They are really bad. I often come home and take an hour nap. My mom's really nice about that, and she lets me take a nap. But I just have to make sure to get all my homework done. If that interfers a lot of - I'll go to the teachers that I'm not scared of, and be like I can have an extra day on this and they'll help me out. Or I have another teacher who she reads my textbook to me during lunchtime when I need help. >>DR. MORRISON: Any other questions? OK. Do you have any general questions about dyslexia? OK. Well, thank you Carly. This took a lot of guts to do.