Donald Rumsfeld on Donald Trump, 2016, The Middle East, And His New App

BIANNA GOLODRYGA: Hi everyone, I'm Bianna Golodryga. And this is Yahoo News Live. Donald Rumsfeld was the Secretary of Defense most recently for President George W. Bush. He is now out with a new app called Churchill Solitaire. Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for joining us. DONALD RUMSFELD: You bet. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: And we'll get to your app in just a moment, but first, as someone who has served three Republican presidents I have to ask you about the current field of GOP candidates. There's another Republican debate tonight. I'm sure at this point you've heard that Donald Trump decided against participating. In your opinion, was this a smart move on Trump's part? DONALD RUMSFELD: Well, I guess time will tell. He sure has been able to draw big crowds and lead in the polls, so his judgment on things like that, public affairs issues like that, so far has been pretty good. I have no idea what the reaction will be. I'm sure people in Iowa will be somewhat disappointed that he isn't there. And I suppose people watching the debate will be somewhat disappointed. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: Yeah, he said he will instead be at Drake University holding a rally with all the proceeds going to veterans. Meantime, you've said in the past that Trump has touched a nerve in our country, and that while not knowing him personally, do you think he's fit to be commander-in-chief from what you've seen and heard? DONALD RUMSFELD: Well, I don't know him at all. I've never met him. But it is-- having seen a lot of presidential elections over my 83 years, I must say that he and Bernie Sanders have both hit a nerve in this country. That they can draw in 20,000 people says that they are saying something, or doing something, or behaving in a way that leads people to want to see them and hear them and understand what they're about. Most politicians aren't able to get 1,000 people, let alone 20,000 people to come to a meeting. It's amazing. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: And what is that nerve, do you think, that they've hit. Because if you look back in 2008, of course, the economy was just recovering from the worst recession, we've seen since the Great Depression, so it made sense that President Obama, Barack Obama senator at the time, came forward with a new idea, with a new vision and plan. But were you surprised by how much anger and resentment there was towards Washington now? DONALD RUMSFELD: I must say that it has opened up for everybody who is observing what's going on in this election that thought that there is discouragement with Washington, and with the president, and the administration, and the Congress, and governance broadly. I think part of it with Sanders is he comes off as very authentic, that he really believes what he's saying. And I think people find the fact that he seems convinced of what he's saying is appealing. In the case of Trump, the fact that he seems to say what he wants to say and it's unorthodox, it isn't the kind of thing that most politicians say the way he says things, I think has-- plus I think the immigration issue has been an important one that Trump has touched on that people are concerned about. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: There are some in your party that have said it's the divisiveness that President Obama, in their opinion, has created that has created such a fanfare for Donald Trump. The polarization that we've seen in this country they attribute to President Obama. Do you agree with them? DONALD RUMSFELD: I think that it is correct that President Obama's general behavior in office has been not the kind of behavior where you try to bring people together. I think he's led to a division in the country by his manner and his words and his behavior that exists. And I think people are concerned about that. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: And Mr. Secretary, one of your former Republican colleagues, and successors incidentally as Defense Secretary, Bob Gates told me last week that he hasn't heard any credible solution to combating ISIS from the Republican candidates thus far. Quoting saying that, "you can't carpet bomb your way out of it." And of course, that being a reference to a suggestion Ted Cruz had and a proposal he had. Do you agree or disagree with Secretary Gates? DONALD RUMSFELD: Well, I'd have to see precisely what he said. But I think it is correct that the problem we face with radical Islamists is something that's going to take time to deal with, that we're going to have to have support from the Muslim community. And that people are going to have to be willing to engage that problem and identify the problem that we are facing a strain, a radical, violent, extremist strain in that faith that needs to be addressed by people in the faith because they're killing people of all faiths. And it's a serious thing. It's not going to be won just with bullets. That's for sure. It's going to take time and many, many years, I'm afraid. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: And this is a subject, clearly, that you are well read on. A number of your fellow President Bush alums from Paul Wolfowitz to John Bolton are advising GOP candidates. Have any of them reached out to you for advice? DONALD RUMSFELD: I have not been engaged in the campaign and really don't plan to be. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: And then, of course, I have to ask you about Jeb Bush and his campaign. One might say it's been all downhill since his widely criticized answer about whether or not he would invade Iraq knowing what we know now. Are you surprised at how Jeb Bush's campaign has gone so far? DONALD RUMSFELD: Well, not really. I, of course, was able to work with his brother, George W. Bush, who I found to be a good man, a good person, and a good president, and a good politician. But I don't know Jeb Bush at all. And I'm really not in a position to comment on him or his campaign. But it certainly has not caught fire. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: Yeah, that is for sure. Speaking of the Iraq war, there is a memo that has resurfaced about Iraq and weapons of mass destruction that you wrote to your Joint Chiefs of Staff saying quote, "please take a look at this material as we don't know about WMD. It is big." That material was a report on WMDs in Iraq that was assessed quote "we've struggled to estimate the unknowns. We range from 0% to about 75% knowledge on various aspects of their program." On the "Late Show with Stephen Colbert," you seemed to imply that President George W. Bush had that intelligence available to him. Is that true? Did he? DONALD RUMSFELD: Oh, I'm sure he did. The Joint Chiefs and the Department of Defense, and the Department of State, and the Central Intelligence Agency all cooperated and shared information. And the responsibility for presenting all of that to the president was the Director of Central Intelligence, George Tenet, who had been appointed by Bill Clinton and served in that position. And everyone had access to all of that information. I made that memo public, I think, some years ago on my website. There's nothing new about it. I suppose it may have been new to the person who wrote the article, but it wasn't new to anyone else. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: And of course, if you look at that span of history, you see that the president, President Obama, is still dogged by the Iraq war decisions and going back to that as far as assessing what decisions he will make going forward with regards to the Middle East. So I want to ask you, looking back-- of course, hindsight is always 20/20-- but you look at the Middle East now and its dictators. Saddam is gone. Gaddafi is gone. Mubarak is gone. Assad is weakened. The Arab Spring, as we know, turned out to be a disaster. What do you say to those who argue that regime change has made the Middle East less stable and cost thousands of American lives at it? DONALD RUMSFELD: Well, it's cost a lot of lives on the part of any number of countries and people. Tens of thousands of people who've died in Syria is just growing every day. I think that it is true, repression works. A dictator can maintain control over a country by killing people, and imprisoning people, and denying them their freedom. Repression works. And when a dictator leaves and people are free, free people are free to make really wonderful decisions and do great things. But free people are also free to do terrible things and create disorder. And there's a transition period where things are untidy, and messy, and dangerous. And that is what we're seeing throughout that part of the world. It is a sad thing to see it happen. I don't think it creates a powerful argument for dictatorships. But I do think that at various times in a country's history different types of leadership make sense. And people who criticize, for example, the leadership in Egypt and say, well, he's too authoritarian. It may be that a country, at a certain point, requires-- I mean, think of during the Civil War, we had martial law in the United States to a certain extent. And there are times when a government needs to have more authority rather than less authority. But those are tough calls and it varies from country to country. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: So looking back-- and I'm sure you've been asked this question many times-- should Saddam have stayed in power in Iraq? DONALD RUMSFELD: Well, you know, the former UN Inspector Charles Duelfer did an analysis after the war quieted down. And he concluded that Saddam Hussein still had the people who developed his chemical and biological weapons. He still had the facilities. And he still had the precursors. And therefore, had the ability, in a relatively short period of weeks or months, to reconstitute his chemical and biological weapons programs. And of course, he'd already used chemical weapons on his own people, the Kurds, and he'd used them on his neighbors, the Iranians. I think the world's a better place without Saddam Hussein. I think it's sad what we're seeing in almost every one of those countries. To see the disruption and the number of people fleeing Syria at the present time, anyone watching those refugees has to just feel heartbroken that those families are fleeing to save their lives. But I guess that's the nature of the world at this time in those locations. And one hopes that it settles down and people will be able to go back to their home countries and live in peace. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: And will the Iran deal help stabilize the region, in your opinion? DONALD RUMSFELD: I doubt it. I think that taking off the sanctions will free up billions of dollars. And that means that that regime, which is the principal supporter of terrorism in the world, will very likely be able to put additional funds into their terrorist support. And it strikes me that the world will be a less safe place with the sanctions off of Iran, but only time will tell. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: So let's end on a lighter note here because I want to know why an 83-year-old former Secretary of Defense, instead of traveling the world, enjoying life now, decides go back to work in the tech field this time developing an app? DONALD RUMSFELD: Well, I must say I'm a great admirer of Winston Churchill. I lived through the period of the 30s and the 40s and watched Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt provide leadership at an important time in our country's history. And Churchill played this game, I'm told. And he taught a man who was a friend of mine when I was ambassador to NATO. And that man taught me how to play it. And I thought, my goodness, we don't want that game lost to history. And so, we've created this app. And it is amazing, the interest in it, because it's a wonderful game. It's very challenging. It's strategic. You've got to think three or four moves ahead. And people are downloading it apparently at a very rapid rate. And I'm delighted that people are enjoying it. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: And who are these people? Are they millennials? DONALD RUMSFELD: I've been told its people across the spectrum. And we're doing it with the Churchill people. And any money they make goes into their Foundation. And any money that we might make from the app will end up going to support military charities of various types, and the troops, and the families of the troops, and the families of the fallen. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: Secretary Rumsfeld, thank you so much for your service. And maybe we'll download the app, too. Catch on. DONALD RUMSFELD: I hope you'll do it. I bet you you can win, too. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: I'll let you know. DONALD RUMSFELD: All right. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: Thanks so much for joining us. Great to see you. DONALD RUMSFELD: Thank you. BIANNA GOLODRYGA: And we always look forward to hearing what you have to say. You can follow me on Facebook and Twitter @biannagolodryga and use #yahoolive to let us know what you think about Secretary Rumsfeld's take on the current situation here with regards to the race for the White House, as well as his new Churchill solitaire app. Thanks for watching.