Jacque Fresco And Roxanne Meadows on On The Edge with Theo Chalmers

On The Edge With Theo Chalmers Good evening Welcome to tonight's "On The Edge" with me, Theo Chalmers Tonight's show is two hours long and live so if you have any questions for my guests during the show text them to 87778 with the word "Edge", a space and then your name, location and your message. I will try to pick up any of you that really hit the mark. They're all charged to standard rate so you'd want to get ready to text. Tonight's show features two people whose ideas for a new society were presented to the world in Peter Joseph's film Zeitgeist Addendum. A film which is being watched online by millions. He is trying to launch a Zeitgeist Movement to change people's perception of reality and consciousness. As part of that idea, he discovered and has incorporated the ideas of an extraordinary 93 year-old thinker, who has created a strategy to build a new unified symbiotic world, in harmony with nature. This project intends to achieve nothing less than the unification of the human race. It includes the design of new cities, the abolition of money, a new paradigm for living. It is called The Venus Project. I am enormously pleased to welcome two guests here on their lecture tour from their 21.5 acre research center located in Venus, Florida. They are founder of The Venus Project, Jacque Fresco, and Roxanne Meadows who's been with the project for 33 years. What a show we've got tonight. Welcome to you both. - Thank you. - Thank you Theo, nice to be here. - I'm glad you could make it. And Jacque, if I could start with you I know you've been working on this for some time but you are an extraordinary, renaissance man, aren't you? You've done a lot of interesting things in your life. - That I don't know but I've worked on a lot of things. - You have designed lots of different things. - Yes, I have. - And how did you come to conceive of a new society? - During the major depression in the States. I learned people that bought new houses and new cars and the banks failed. - You have to forgive me for asking, which depression, Jacque? - 1930, 29. - That big one, the dust bowl? - Yes. That was the time, when I saw 15 million people evicted from their homes cause the banks failed, they couldn't pay them off. So, they bought before that, they bought cars and all that, repossessed and people moved out of their homes by the banks and about 15 million were sleeping in every empty lot. I was just a kid then. You know, 12, 13 years-old. And I looked around at all these people. My dad was an agronomist, a sort of an agriculturist. And he was one of the first guys laid off. And he tried to get a job, but there was no openings. And he was evicted. - Where were you, Jacque? - Where? New York City. - Ah, you were in New York City? - Yes, in Brooklyn. - Ok - And since people were sleeping in every lot I looked around in stores and they had radios and vacuum cleaners but people didn't have money. So what good is it all? And it seemed to me that our nation was capable of producing all the goods and services and making it available to people. But the government did not. At that time, Roosevelt was in, while Hoover said "Prosperity is right around the corner." But those are just words. I've learned then that politicians say things people like to hear. And if they are good at it, they can get elected. Theologians say things that people want to hear. "There, there, everything's going to work out alright." "Don't worry about it. The Lord will provide." And that sort of thing is, the dependency of people, needing that kind of information. But I found out, in reading scientific books and journals that scientists do not speak to win approval. If the majority of people believe the earth is flat they come right out and they say: "This is the evidence we have to prove it's round." Now, they don't say: "It's a little round and a little flat." Then you get along with everybody. It's not the business of science to get along. - So, you've made your business to change people's perception. - I'd tried to. I don't know that I can do that. - Ok, but I'm interested in what made you suddenly go from being, say a designer of helicopters or a consultant in the motion pictures industry to basically creating a new world. - That's later, that was later on. But when I was a kid, the depression forced people to ask new questions. "How come there was a depression?" "How come the banks failed?" They never asked those questions until the depression. And every university had students outside discussing communism, socialism, fascism. They were discussing things, because conditions drove them to that. It isn't that people suddenly became intellectually bright. Conditions forced that. So, I noticed that. So, I listened to Nazis. They had the American flag and the swastika. During the depression, they talked about how great national socialism was. Then I listened to socialist and I asked questions. I said: "How we gonna prevent corruption?". They didn't have any answers. Then, there was a guy speaking on communism. Mankind United. All kinds of ideas. Back to the good old days. People growing their own food. But I was standing in front of a communist and he said: "Beat it, son." I was just a kid. Because there's mostly adults around. I said: "No, I want to hear what you've got to say." He said: "Why?" I said: "Well, I don't believe what the republicans say about the democrats or what the democrats say about the republicans. I want to hear from a communist what communism is." He said: "You can stay." So, after about an hour, I said: "I want to ask you ten thousand questions." He said: "You'll have to go to the YCL." I said: "What's that?" He say: "Young Communist League." I said: "Where are they?" And he gave me an address and I went there. And there were kids about 10 years old to 17 and they were reading Dostoyevsky's book, such as "Crime and Punishment". Ten year olds. They were much brighter than the average child I've ever met and I stayed there for about an hour. Then I asked some questions. "How are you going to prevent corruption, in the future?" They said: "Well, when that time comes, we'll work on it." "How are you going to house the masses?" "Well, we'll work on that, when that time comes." I said: "Let's start a technical branch and work on those problems." So the lead guy said to me: "You're deviating from the teachings of Marx. You'll have to leave." I said: "I didn't come here to hurt anybody. I came here to help. I would help any group of people." So, the vice-president of the Young Communist League got up and said: "Let's hear him out." And they kicked us both out. So that was the end of my attempt to reach the communists. - Ok. Then, I... - Can I just interrupt there? Because those questions you just asked those communists I'm going to ask you those same questions later, with regard to your plans. - Of course, I want you to. - Yes, that's both of us, then. Ok, so carry on, then. - Then, I started...well, attending religious sessions, the minister said: "How wonderful the divine plan was. God makes it rain to make the plants grow." So I raised my hand and I said: "Why does it rain at sea?" He said: "Hold your hands out." And he beat the daylights out of me. And, I didn't understand, I thought, he was kind of a stupid individual. He should have said: "Well, maybe I never thought of that. That's interesting". So, I wanted answers. I don't want to follow anybody and I don't want anybody to follow me. If what I say makes sense, do it. If it doesn't, get off. To build a following, to have people admire you, to walk around, that's dangerous. - Ok. - So, I don't want to lead anybody, I just want to point out things such as when World War II came about, being a kid, I just noticed that they were bombing the hell out of each other. Germany was bombing England and France. And U.S. sent Lindbergh to Germany to see what was happening. And he came back and said: "The Germans are turning out 3,000 planes a month". And the U.S. had 600 first class fighting aircraft. And that was not enough to engage. So they asked the aircraft companies to expand. They said: "Hell no! After the war, we're stuck with a big plant." So they gave the aircraft companies the money to expand. America supported 60% of American industry, build it up. And after the war they gave it back to them, for one cent to three cents on the dollar. That's public funds. They didn't give the public interest in that. And it looked to me very strange, at least what was strange about it. If they conscripted the lives of young men, put them off to defend the country I felt at that time, that they should have conscripted all the war industries so nobody makes a buck out of war. If you make money out of war, you sell submarines, airplanes for $40,000. Today, it's a million dollars for airplanes. People make a lot of money from war. And I thought that was unfair if millions of young Americans put their lives up to defend the country. They used to say on television "Buy war bonds. That will bring Johnny home faster." So they should have conscripted all the banks, all the money to bring Johnny home. And I didn't understand how you can make a profit during the war. So, I'd like to see all the war industries put on the same basis of pay as the soldiers. The soldiers at that time were men who enlisted for the adventure. I asked thousands of soldiers during basic training when I was drafted "What are you fighting for, do you know what you...?" No, they didn't know. Really, they didn't know. And World War I, they had an I.Q. of an 11 year old. So, soldiers never knew what they were fighting for. It's just the medals and the adventure, they went into the war for. But I asked thousands of soldiers: "What are you fighting for?" to see what they knew. They didn't know a damn thing. - Jacque, did you fight? - No, I was sent to Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio, for ideas and invention. - Ok. - So, they said to me, first thing said: "Can you make a bomb that moves sideways?" I said: "No, I can only design safety devices, I don't know how to do that". I know how to do that, but I won't. Do you understand that? - I do understand, yeah. You were sort of a conscientious objector a subtle, conscientious objector, were you? - Well, no. I couldn't do that because that would put me in prison and get me in trouble. I wanted to get my ideas out in the army. So, I told the army men that, the top brass, that I was surrounded by, such as a major, I said: "I think the war is wrong." And he said to me: "You better be good, what you say." I said: "You got to give me at least 20 minutes. Will you do that?" He agreed. I said: "Don't judge me until I finish." - Ok. Now, I had a friend that was in World War I, his name was Forrest. - Gump? - Forrest Wisome. - Sure. - And he used to fly military planes in World War I and he told me he flew over German munition dumps with the orders not to bomb it. He said he flew over it 8 times. Now, he couldn't understand why he shouldn't bomb it. After the war, there was a book called "Arms and the Men". I want you to remember that. That book showed how DuPont... -Ernest Hemingway? -"Arms and the Men". DuPont had holdings in I.J Farben, that's the reason they resorted not to bomb it. Now, that's dirty. - Yeah. - Fortune Magazine ran "Arms and the Men", years ago showing how different nations had investments in other nations and so they manipulated things so you didn't...And I thought that was corrupt, that was not good, the war was dirty. Then, in World War II, we were taking all the islands in the South Pacific shooting Japanese and telling the natives they're coming to take your island away and they show the natives how to use guns. They didn't care about the lives of people. They care about defending their particular institution. So, I went along with a guy named Alexander P de Seversky who owns Seversky Aircraft Factory. He said: "We shouldn't build pursuit planes and we shouldn't take the islands in the South Pacific." So, I said: "What should we do?". He said: "Well, we should build long range bombers and knock out the power projects in Germany. That will stop the aircraft factories and everything else. Don't shoot soldiers in the field", he said. That does nothing. If you don't bomb the power project and shut down the munition factories, they'll keep sending airplanes and other things over. But there's no money in that, shutting down the factories. And there's more money in ordering new airplanes, you understand what I mean? - I do understand, what you mean. - So the war looked bad and President Johnson even at that time had holdings in steel material that linked together to make runways on airports and I knew that the profit system made war unsane, not insane. I feel that people were stupid when you figure out the cost of World War II. Not just in lives, in flattening out all of Germany. England was bombed flat. France was attacked and bombed. Thousands of soldiers were killed and 400 ships sunk to the bottom of the sea with copper, brass, manganese, tungsten. What a tremendous loss. And then paying the pensions of veterans for the rest of their lives, after the war. I'll tell you, it was cheaper to rebuild the world. Build hospitals, clean out the slums give nations what they lacked. It would be smarter to rebuild the world, rather than train millions of men to be killing machines. That's what a soldier is. A killing machine. And I figured, if we sent kids back to school, to become problem solvers instead of killing machines. How to bridge the difference between nations? How do you get to nations that have a totally different value system than we do? Here's how you get there. It's very easy. The War Department doesn't know these things they're comprised of very stupid men that are concerned with defence only. Here's how you do it. You approach a nation on the basis that they all need the same things we need. Clean air, clean water, arable land and relevant education. That means, no investment brokers, no bankers, no advertising. Just people that know agronomy, geology, structural engineering, physics, science. Everything that you have your radio, your television set, your washing machine, your refrigerator, is technology. Politicians have no knowledge of anything. They're lawyers and business men elected to political office who don't know the fundamentals of how people get to be the way they are. That means, if you were raised as a baby by the head hunters of the Amazon you'd be a head hunter. If you never saw anything else, I mean. No movies, never travelled. And if I said to you: "Doesn't it bother you to have ten shrunken heads?" He says: "Yes, my brother has 20." Is he a bad guy? No. He's reflecting his culture. So, I believe if you were brought up as a baby in Nazi Germany all you see is "Heil Hitler", "Deutschland Über Alles!" And all the books are burnt, you become a nazi. Is he a bad guy? No. That's all he's been exposed to. So I do not blame people, no matter what they are. I even think that a serial killer is made that way by the environment they are reared in. If you're brought up in the deep south, you are going to speak with the southern accent. And I say: "Stop speaking with the southern accent". Well, that doesn't work. "Say no to drugs" is really stupid who ever proposed that? As long as there is money in drugs, they're gonna sell drugs. Do you understand that? - I do. Jacque, I'm gonna have to butt in a little bit. Just want to get Roxanne in the room. So, Roxanne, Jacque is obviously a very passionate speaker and thinker. And you've been working with him for 33 years. - Yes. - What's your role? Well, I've been working with him and doing everything I can to help this direction because I really think it is the only viable alternative out there. When I heard about it, it made more sense than anything I had ever heard of. The activists today are upset about what's going on and they are a watchdog of this system. But they don't pose any alternatives and as long as you don't pose any alternatives it's the same story. So, we're not trying to fix this system. We don't think you can fix it. That's doing patchwork. You can't really make this system, the monetary system, just or equitable. They say it's a democracy and you have freedom, but you're really as free as your purchasing power. There really is no democracy, that's a word that they get people to go fight and die for. And to us, it really means nothing. We don't see how it means anything in this culture. You know, when people say: "We live in a democracy, we're a participatory democracy". We say: "Well, did you vote for the space age? Did you vote for the Iraq war? Did you vote for libraries or bridges in any areas? No. You vote for who they put up". And those people... - And they only have two parties, don't they? - To us they have one party. - Well, they have two different names, don't they? In America, you have the democrats and the republicans. And they represent big business. That's right. Maybe the liberals and the democrats, a little bit. - So, this is an entirely different system and we pose an entirely different social design. We look at what causes the problems and try and design a society that eliminates war, poverty, hunger, crime and that can be done today, but not within a monetary system. - You know it´s a...what you present. A lot of the things that you present are very attractive and we'll get to some great images and we'll show a little bit of a film. I don't know if we'll get time in this segment to show the film. Perhaps, the gallery could tell me. But...no. Thank you. So, all these things are very attractive and the designs and so on Incredibly attractive for this new world, if you like. But, you know, you don't snap your fingers and there's a new world. How do you achieve it? It would be nice. But first, like anything else you have to introduce it to the public like what you're doing through all the media that we can. We feel that we'd like to present a major motion picture. Peter Joseph did a tremendous job to introduce this to the whole world and we get emails, we get hundreds and hundreds of emails a day from people who want to help. - Let me...what I want to do is I want to go around one of these pictures. This is... Let's go to picture two, can we? This is a picture of some of your architectural ideas for a new world. There we go, it's on that screen there. Oh, it's gone again, there it is. So these are some of your ideas, aren't they? - Yes - And you design these buildings? - Yes. - I mean, they are stunning buildings, I'd be very happy to live in either one of those two for instance. - Well, actually, they're all transitional. There's no final architecture or final frontiers or final city. Even the best city I design, will be a straitjacket to the kids in the future. They'll design their own cities, and if you make a statue of me, that holds back the future. So there's no more self ego involved. Most architects design tall buildings and feel proud of it. They should design buildings for living, comfort, safety, earthquake proof fireproof, termite proof. And architects don't do that. They're all little personalities that seek recognition. You don't fight for recognition, you fight for elimination of the problems. When people are saner, they will not want a Nobel Prize because if you work on cancer 10 years and I read your book and find out what didn't work and I come up 2 years later, I win a Nobel Prize. I feel that everybody working on cancer works just as hard as you do. So I don't see that there should be Nobel Prizes. They should work because they believe in making life better for people. - But, I've gotta come back to the same question - That's alright. - of how did you get the world to change, you know? - Assuming that your ideas are acceptable to the majority and I'm not sure they are. We'll get to that. - But assuming that they are acceptable to the majority and everyone finds them attractive and you are able to disseminate these ideas all around the world. And everybody bought into them. You know, how do you get to that point? How do you get to the point where everybody buys into it? - The question is - How do we get from here to there? - Yeah, and how do you stop the people who are really in power. - I understand. - Clinging on to what they've got. - First thing that has to happen, there has to have an economic problem. That's what happened during the depression. That's when socialism, communism, fascism all emerged. - But we've got that now, Jacque. We've got an economic problem. - We're in that process now. But I don't see anybody going: "Oh, let's get rid of the money". - Wait a while. We're nearing the turning point. See, now, all over the world, societies are breaking down. And politicians don't know what to do. They gave the money, I'm talking about America cause that's where I came from they gave the money to the people that created the problem in the first place. Then they bailed out the automobile factories. When they were going broke, they didn't even want to close the plant. And they bailed them out. The automobile companies never submitted a blueprint with a car better than Toyota, faster than Toyota, better built at a lower price. If they don't submit that and the public doesn't have purchasing power due to losing their jobs, who the hell is gonna buy these new cars? - Well, they're giving "Cash for Clunkers" as they call them in America and we've got a scrapping scheme in the UK, as well. Yes, all over the world. All governments are corrupt. Did you get that message? All of them. All of them are corrupt. Communism, socialism, all of them. Fascism. So, I felt: "Is there another way to operate a government?" And I sat down and I began to design the society in the future. Jacque, I've got to cut in there because we're going for a break now. If you'd like to text in your message or comments to Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows, why not do so now to 87778, with the word, "Edge" and then your text. We'll see you back here very soon. Welcome back to On the Edge, with me, Theo Chalmers with my special guests, Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows. Jacque, just before the break we were talking about how we can achieve this utopia, if you like. But what I thought we'd do now is just show a bit of a little film that you've made. - Yes. - If we can, so if we can get to that film. it might give people an idea. - This is only transitional pictures of what the future could be. Not what it will be, I don't know. We may kill each other. Because I'm very much against the space program if any one nation gets out there long enough, there's gonna be nuclear weapons going around. We're not wise enough yet. Nor are we civilized. As long as there's prisons, police, armies, navies, we are not civilized. When the world joins together and agrees to use the Earth intelligently and I'm talking about the whole world, that will be the beginning of the civilized age. There's no such thing as utopia. Every city will continue to grow, change, just as your laptop undergoes change. There's no final frontiers, that's bull, that's written by Hollywood hacks. Movies on the future, where they burn each other with laser weapons and robots choke the designer. That's Hollywood hacks. Has nothing to do with the future. Politicians have no way of dealing. -What's this Jacque? That's the city of the future, one city. The universities design buildings and people live in them, complain and *** about the lack of, how fast the elevators move, my grandmother can't get out of them. And we change them till they work very well. And at that time, we move the buildings out there. The concert halls and all. After put to test, the city has everything in the middle. Medical care, dental care and a shopping where goods are available to everyone without a price tag. There's no money anymore. The reason there's no money is because drug companies pay off radio stations, television stations to pitch their drugs. The drug company doesn't tell you if you drink carrot juice, that'll lower your blood pressure there's no money in that. So they make pills. So, I'm saying that all of the industries are price system oriented, money oriented. And if that's their orientation, I don't trust them. When a doctor says your kidney has to come out we don't know whether he's trying to pay off a new boat or whether your kidney has to come out. So, I don't trust the monetary system. So, here we show buildings being assembled automatically by machine. You don't need laborers anymore, you don't need young girls standing behind counters. We can design machines to move 20 story buildings flow them out to the site and with one pound of force we can move a building, a ton of weight. So the round city of the future will put every district the same distance from that center building and the center building has everything that people need. - Well, I mean that looks absolutely incredible and I'm sure it would be great. I would think that there probably isn't a person on the planet who wouldn't think that looks great. But I've got to get back to that question which we were interrupted by the break. -Sure. And that is: "How does it happen?" - Ok. I'm gonna try to answer that and if I fail, you'd have to let me know. Say: "You didn't answer". - Well, a lot of people are texting in already. - Ok - Let me just read out a couple here. "This gentleman should be president of the world. Really. Kind regards, Boris Wilmotte." "You are more than an inspiration, you are a motivation. Thank you for your light in a dull world. Extreme emotion." "That man should be in power" That's A. Doherty in Strabane, Northern Ireland. But then, Bob in Wyatt says: "How does it work without money, who goes to work, what do you do?" - Ok, you ask me that now? - Yeah. - Ok. The way it happens is, the system has to fall. People have to lose confidence in their elected leaders. I have no control. At that time, when they try to solve problems and it doesn't work, then the public will say. They're looking for new ideas, they don't give a damn right now. As long as they working, paying off their homes and cars. That's all they're concerned with. Only if they lose their jobs and their homes, do they begin to look around for new ideas. So, what we want to do is make a motion picture called "And the World Will Be One". And that motion picture is about a family in the future, how they live, their lifestyle. And children, 6 and 7 years old, that are different than our children. No Mickey Mouse Clubs or Cinderella or garbage that they get in school today. Children can learn math, they can learn anything at all. And the children are brighter and they ask their parents "How did we get to a world without war, without crime? I wanna know in detail." So father says: "Didn't you get that in school?" He says: "Only a little bit." And the kids say: "We wanna know exactly how we get from this old world of chiselers, bankers, fraudulent and social institutions, propaganda. How do you get from the old world to the new one?" And the father starts, says: "That's a long thing, didn't you get that in school?" They say: "Not enough, I want detail, I wanna know." So, he sits both children down and he starts talking and the camera goes back to the present day. Where there's unemployment, protest signs, "Don't cut down the forest". As long as people buy lumber, they gonna keep cutting down the forest. The stupidity of walking around with protest signs doesn't work. You see, the liberal points out the shortcomings of our country but does not offer an alternative. Communism, socialism offers no working alternative. - But isn't your future a bit like a communist world from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs? - I don't buy that. - No, there's money, they use money in communism and socialism. They have elitism. - Ok, so how does it work? - They have stratification. They have politicians, it's nothing like that. They are for the labour class. We're for eliminating the labour class, as soon as possible through automation and technology. People can go back to school and do what they want. - But ok, well, who's gonna design the buildings then? That's a job, isn't it? - Ok, the buildings are already designed. - But you just said those buildings will evolve and if the lifts don't work and grandma can't get to her exercise class... - We build the first city and that city has the planners in it first. The planers and the people that will work out the details. The second city, we level some of the old cities and keep some of it as museums cities to show people how people used to live. We level the old cities and mine it for the iron, glass and other materials and recycle it back into new cities that are fireproof, earthquake proof and there's no automobiles. There's circular elevators that take you anywhere. Here's where I got the idea. Radio city, New York. The Empire State Building takes a million people up and down and never crash into one another. So we turn the elevators out that way so you dial in where you wanna go, the art center and the music center just like an elevator and it takes you there. Putting people in automobiles is a stupid thing. More people are killed on the highways than war. And you say: "Drive safely". Those are words. We don't have "drive safely". During the transition, the automobiles have a sensor on it so if I'm forty feet away from your car and if I got mad at you I couldn't hit you. The sensor would stop my car. That's what I mean by intelligent management of the Earth's resources. Politicians cannot do that. They don't understand technology. Today the problems are technical, not political. As soon as people get that to their heads, if they do, they'll understand that war is the most corrupt supreme failure of nations to bridge the difference. You have the Pentagon in Washington, that defends this country. Well, what happened at Pearl Harbor? We gave them radar and the kids detected the enemy planes coming over. And they called the captain. He says: "Probably our planes". What the hell good are these people, if they don't know to defend their.. Then the people that couldn't afford armies, hijacked two airplanes and flew into the Trade Centers, you see. And we never said: "Why did they do that?" "How can we build so much hatred in the people, what did we do in the past?" Nobody seems to know that. - Well Jacque, a lot of people who watch this program believe that it was the American government that flew those planes into the World Trade Center. - A conspiracy? - Yes, a conspiracy. I don't buy that, but I think that, the American government is stupid they do a lot of stupid things, but not that stupid. - So you don't think...you think that was some people with box cutters who hijacked those airplanes? - I don't buy it. Ok? - Next question. - Alright. Let's say, for a moment, looking into the future that everyone on the planet goes "Jacque that's a great idea, we'll stop making weapons, we'll start building this new utopia". - Don't use that word, "utopia". It implies a final state. - Ok, this, Venus Project idea, ok? - A better means of living. - A better means of living. Let's say everyone adopts your idea for a better means of living. - Who's in charge? - Ok. During the transition from the old monetary system to the Resource-Based Economy which you didn't ask me how the new economy works. - We'll get to that. - During the transition, there will be trouble, crime, *** everything you have today. If we get to the point of automation as we want it I than believe that, when people have access to the necessities of life they do not steal. If you made a public library, where anyone can get a book. That's wonderful. But they fought the women that marched for that, they threw rotten eggs at them. let me finish, they threw rotten eggs at them all the trouble you have for every bit of change, the social change there was always a minority beat up, put in jail, you know for the difference. So I'm saying this, if you do that, you hold back the future, you should not be afraid of ideas. Listen to all kinds of ideas and reject those that you feel won't work or question it. - But you didn't answer the question, Jacque. Who's in charge? - Ok, during the transition, the people that have studied The Venus Project and how it works, are not in charge. You're asking, who makes the decisions and who has the right to make decisions about what authority. But does the public participate? Is it a democracy or is it a dictatorship of technology? It's not a dictatorship of technology. I wanna say this. Cause scientists are just as dumb as everyone else. They're part of the same institutions. They write books on why man can't fly. The Wright brothers never read their books, so they built the flying machine. Edison was a nothing and he gave us many things. So don't think the establishment gives you ideas. Some American develops a new carburetor in his garage and he sells it to General Motors and General Motors says, "And now General Motors brings you ..." You don't know where that came from. When I worked for Douglas Aircraft, everything I thought of, belonged to Douglas and the Northern Division, did you know that? - Well, yes I... - Even when I went home and thought of ideas, it belonged to them. - I could understand how that works. - And that, to me, is corrupt. - Ok, we've talked about that. I mean, I like the way you think, you've got great ideas but Jacque, you've got to answer the question. Who makes the decisions? - No one. Here's how it's done. They're under the orders of a scientific group, the Venus plan which was written out. What they do is take samples of the soil say, from all over England and it goes to central agriculture. There they analyse the soil and by the content they say it's best to grow apple trees with that soil. That's not an opinion, that's a finding. No more opinions. No more: "What do you think? What do you think?" - But - We measure...yeah. - Who decides? Which scientists make the decisions? - I am proposing a system. - This is a 'scientopoly', isn't it? - No, if people agree upon this direction which is using the scientific method applied to the social system which means, using science and technology to improve the lives of everyone and the environment. Today, when there's money in it, the bottom line is money and it's not for the well-being of people. They don't really care about people. It's for the bottom line and for industry and for certain people's advantage. But in the Resource-Based Economy, it's what we call it then the bottom line is the benefit of people. So, you don't make...first you take a survey of what we have, all over the world. This is a global system. So you take a survey of what we have in resources, technology, personnel and... - Ok, who decides that we take a survey? - We are laying out a direction. - How enacts the survey? Who puts the decision in the... - The Venus Project does. - If people go along with what The Venus Project advocates which is the benefit, the betterment of human kind, then we have a process level as to how to feed, house and clothe people all over the world. When you want to make a bridge, you don't go to Aunt Minnie who has a pastry restaurant. You go to people who make bridges, who have a history and who have experience in that. And so, people...but they don't have say in the government. There is no government, they don't have say in the direction of society. We lay out a direction and that's our end goal, is to make a better world. Make people creative, make people the highest potential that they can be. Change school systems for that and use the intelligent management of the Earth's resources. So how do you do that? By people who know how to build bridges. You go to people who can house people, you go to people how can make low cost houses quickly, using clean sources of energy make them energy efficient, make them go together quickly. We're not looking for architects who build out of ego. We're looking for the end problem, which is to house people. - Ok, we'll get to the point of the resource economy and no money in a minute. But I still want to...I'm sorry to labour the point but I'm, you know, the devil's advocate here. - Ok. - And I still don't understand who decides to do stuff. And it's alright about saying, you know: "Bridge builders build bridges house builders build houses, or machines build houses directed by house builders or whatever. - I understand your question. - But who is in power? - Ok. The Venus Project designed a procedure for attaining a future. If a majority of people want that, it will happen. If they don't, it won't happen. So, if they decided that they want it. - So, it's the majority vote, it's that what you're saying? - No, if the majority can understand the procedures of The Venus Project. They may or may not understand it. I can only present the way to deal with problems because people come to me all the time, say "Can you make 3-dimensional movies without glasses?" I've done all that. I've designed artificial legs for doctors, hospital equipment, surgical instruments. But if a guy didn't have the money, couldn't buy the artificial leg. So, I didn't like that and I said: "Jacque, you've gotta design a society that works. Don't spend your time on invention." So, I said to myself: "How do you know your system will work?" I said: "I don't. I learned that from the scientific method." So I said: "Why don't you put your system to test?" So I joined the Ku Klux *** in Miami and dissolved it in a month and half. Then I joined the White Citizens Council. Alone. They hate foreigners and dissolved that in one month. Then in New York City, I said: "What are some of the most backward people in the area?" The consensus were the Arabs. I said: "What makes you think they're backwards?" "They still believe the Earth is flat." So I said: "Boy, I better get in there and try to turn them around. And if I can't turn them around, I can't change society." Not a theory on paper, nice little utopia, where everything works well. That's BS, bad science. So, I'm saying to you that I called up the Arabs and I said: "Can I meet with you?" I called up the head of the Arab group. There's always a head of a Ku Klux ***. I called him up and I said: "I'd like to speak with you." He said, in his accent: "You are Arab?" I said: "Ergh, I'm not an Arab, but I speak a little bit of many languages." So he said: "From where do your father he born?" And that means, you know, "Where's your father born?" So I said: "In Lebanon." He said: "Very good, come and saw me." Means "come and see me". So I came to see him and he said: "You believe the world be round?" I said: "Yes." He went: "Tsk, tsk, tsk." That means "It can't be" in his terms. Then he pointed to his head to show me held up this hands like this and he said: "If the world be round, all the water fall me down here. All the people, they fall me down." I thought he was doing a good job for an uneducated man. - What year was this, Jacque? This is about 45 years ago, 50 years ago. So, I said to him I said: "I've got to change him, cause that's important." So, I gave him a rubber balloon which I brought with me and I rubbed it with fur and I put corn flakes in his hand and told him to hold his hand 10 inches away or this far away from the balloon. And if he rubbed it with fur fast, all the corn flakes jumped up. - Static electricity. And his jaw hit the pavement. And he said: "World, he magnet?" I said: "Yeah." "Ahhh." And he went and explained it to all the other Arabs. It took an hour and a half, I turned him around. So I found out, how people think, where they get their ideas from and approach them on their level, not mine. - So Jacque, I'm sorry, I'm gonna keep pushing this point till I get an answer. - That's alright, I want you to. - Good, cause you did ask me, before we started to push you on points that are important. And I think this is a really important point. So, let's imagine for a second that you make your film and everybody goes on the website and everybody loves what your ideas are and they all say: "We want this, we want this Venus Project to be a reality." - And we have to support it. - Yeah. So, there they are, happy for it to happen. Is it you that makes the decision, what happens next? - I wrote a proposal for a new type of society, criticising and showing possible alternatives such as, you've got signs on the road. "Drive carefully, slippery when wet". We put an abrasive on the highway so it's not slippery when wet. - But Jacque, Jacque, Jacque. I'm sorry to interrupt you but you keep coming up with great ideas for things but you're avoiding the issue. Who makes the decisions? We put out the proposals, if they agree with that and support it economically. - People have a vote then, is that what you're saying? - No. - Does anyone have a button in the living room? Yes or no? It comes on the television. We wanna do this. We wanna build a farm here or we wanna build a block of flats here. Yes or no? Is that it? - No. - No, that's not it. - Not at all. - So, how does it, how do I...If I'm a citizen of this planet, how do I affect my life? - We already worked that out, that doesn't have to be done anymore. We put the proposal up before people and they say: "Go". That means, they have to support it economically, during the transition. - Look, there are a lot of people today, talking about a better world in flowery terms and say that we need a change, we can't go on with what we're doing we're going to pollute the Earth, we're going to kill ourselves with bombs but they don't pose anything, nobody says: "How do you get out of this?" They're just beginning to ask those questions and say: "We need to do something else". Jacque has asked this questions in 1929, when he saw the first depression the large depression. And it is then, when he started to look around and say "This does not work, there are things in store windows, there are technical people there are farms, there are people that wanna do things and make things but people are thrown out of their houses, because the world is still the same place but they don't have any money in their pockets. It's the rules of the game that we play by that were screwed up. So he proceeded, when he was a young man, to devise another system that would work for the benefit of all that would house people, that would clothe people, that would make them creative that, this today is an established society. Many, many years ago, many people became comfortable and then tried to freeze things and keep them as it is. The society that we are proposing is an emergent society. It's not fixed, it's not frozen. Jacque laid out a direction to work towards in city planning and transportation and across the board, when nobody else was working on that. And it's not a fixed society, it's an emergent society where things are growing. That's why he doesn't like it to be called an utopia because that's like: "We've made a final society and this is it and you can't go any further." His society, can you imagine turning science and technology and all scientists and say: "How do we build a better society? How do we eliminate accidents? How do we make clean sources of energy? How do we turn science and technology over to make things better for people?" That's not what we're about today. - Ok, well this are all good thing. Let me read a few texts out. Brandon from Hull says it will be a form of communism you'll never get away from someone who wants to dictate. - That's because he knows nothing about this system. - Ok. Rob Kene at Wigan says: "Jacque, just say that you will make the decisions. I would be happy for you to do that." Adrian.D says: "As long as there is power, evil people will want it. How do you stop them?" - Ok. The Venus Project has a proposal for government operations in which there are no people in government. - Ah, here we are getting to it now. Ok, no people in government. So who makes the decisions? - I'm gonna show you. - Good. - Ok, so we have a computer with electrical tentacles into the soil. If the water table drops, that pumps water out there. If the nutrients change, that machine pumps nutrients out there. Nine months ago, a computer was developed that can handle one thousand trillion bits of information per second. No goofy humans can do that. So we move humans out, because the future world is so highly technical no human being is capable of handling trillions of bits of information input per second. Only computers can do that. So man is being put out. If you don't understand me, go to your supermarkets you'll see new check out machines, when you pitch a card through and they're moving people out. - Jacque, I'm sorry, we're gonna go for another break now, be back here soon. Once again, if you'd like to text in your questions or comments for Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meandows, please do so now. See you back here, very soon. Welcome back to "On the Edge" with me, Theo Chalmers and my special guests Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows. Right, Jacque, just before the break here, you were saying and I think I understood this correctly you were saying that computers will make the decisions. - Well, what we call cybernetics. Computers operate machines. If you go to a automobile company today, you'll see robots putting the wheels on everything. The people are being moved out, do you understand me? - Well, but I don't want robots telling me what wheels I want. - The robots telling you what? - What wheels I want. - The robots can measure things better than you can. - Yeah, yeah, of course they can but if we hand our power to a bunch of robots come on, that's a dystopia not an utopia. - You've seen a lot of lousy movies, like "1984", "Brave New World", "Atlas Shrugged" is written by Hollywood hacks, and they don't know how machines work so the robots choke the designers. That's Hollywood, not reality. - But I don't think...Well, I'm not ready to have a robot make my decisions for me and I don't think... - Well, we'll check that out, let's check it out. - Ok. - Right, you don't turn a generator to keep your lights going, do you? - No. You assign that to robots cause they can do a better job than you can. Now, in the early days, a pilot used to look out of a airplane and say: "I'm about a mile high". Today, the army took that decision away from pilots and they have Doppler radar which hits the ground, bounces back and says: "You're five thousand, three hundred feet three inches off the ground". No human can do that. - No, the Eurofighter for instance, can't be flown by a human being. It has to be flown by computers. It sounds understandable. - It will be in the next 10 years. - Well, that's the case now. They've got people in them, pilots. - The army has flying planes automatically. - But the pilots still have the last word, doesn't it? The pilots say... - No. - No, the mission has the last word. In other words, they have guided missiles and the guided missiles are set to hit a given target and they are smart enough to sense metals and everything else or go up the rear end of an airplane. It doesn't need to be steered by people anymore. - So, what if the computers decide that there are too many people on the planet. - No, wait, what's your question, what do you do with overpopulation? - No, that's not the question, the question is what if the computers decide that there are too many people and the food supply won't feed those people so would they say: "Oh, let's kill a few". - I'll answer that. Computers do not do that. Computers and scientific machines are really extensions of human attributes but they have no feelings. Machines don't care if you destroy that laptop in front of forty (other laptops). They don't say: "We're going to get you this month" or "Next month for sure". They don't care. Don't you understand that? That's a human projection. - Jacque, are you saying then that computer programmers will rule the world? - No, not at all. They are under the guidance of The Venus Project, if they agree. If they don't agree, they won't support it. If you have a cavalry in Poland. Like in Poland, they believed the cavalry was the most important thing and the Germans believed the war tanks were. And they slaughtered the hell out of the Poles, cause they couldn't get passed that point. If the American and English people and French people don't realise what I'm talking about they'll be blown to smithereens by their own stupidity. We are lousing up the air, the oceans and that... We know that politicians don't know what to do, cause I've asked them. I've asked every politician, that I've grown up with and said "What do you do about this? How do we stop cars from hitting each other? How do you stop buildings from burning?" "I don't know, I don't know". They don't know what do to. They're businessmen. - Ok, let me read a couple of texts here. Pauline Walintons says: "Wouldn't a new society need a leader or do we lead ourselves?" - No, no leaders. - "And what if a person went against the grain. Who makes law?" - Ok. We feel that people go against the grain because they've been damaged by society. In other words, if you had two children, I'm a great believer that environment shapes values. I believe that the dialect you speak, your facial expressions, you learn. Women move in certain way. "Oh, did I see a gorgeous hat?" And if a guy is brought up by women only, they'll move just like that. If you're raised in Italy, is it "Come on, eat. Is a good food!" Is that an imitation? No, that's the product effect that environment has upon people. - This is nature vs. nurture, isn't it, the old argument, like in Othello? - No. They think that human nature is a certain way, most people cause they're brought up that way. Actually, there's no such thing as free choice. If you ask an Eskimo: "What do you want? You can have anything you want." He doesn't say: "A stainless steel refrigerator." He can't say that. So, if you ask an impoverished person: "What would make you happy?" "A steady job, maybe, and a good car." What the hell do you think he can say? He can't get past that...that his society superimposes upon him. - When you're very young, the society starts pumping stuff into your head. "What's the greatest country in the world?" I don't know. The good old USA if you're brought up there. "And who loves you more then everybody in the world? - I don't know - You're mommy and daddy". So they pump all that crap in your head, then as you get older, there's the Mickey Mouse Club, all crap. And as long as you start filling the heads of kids with crap, you're hurting the future. So kids can learn geology, continental drift, space science. Kids can learn anything. They don't need to be members of Mickey Mouse Club. That's socially offensive. So what you call decent people today, will be considered criminals in the near future. The supreme justice of the supreme court will be considered a criminal in the future. Why? Because there used to be a definition of a criminal and that definition was: One who removes a thing from your house or your person without your permission. Today, they've changed the definition: One who's caught which is much better. - Well, let's talk about money...let's talk about money. - There isn't any money in our society. - That's the question. Ok, this is a... an economy based on what's available. - Yes - Not money. - Not money. - So, let's...let me ask you a question then. Say I'm living in this society. - Yes - And, I've got an old car. - Yes. - And I want a new car but, I just don't want any new car because I'd quite liked to have something a bit nice. How do I get that? - And does that mean that somebody else doesn't get that? - If she drives an old, beat up Volkswagen and you drive a Mercedes. If her breaks fail, you die. So we have no old cars. They weigh as much as a new car. So we reprocess them and turn out the best cars America can turn out. Let me explain that further. - Ok. - The soldiers in the US Army Air Force don't get any beat up old planes. They get the best a nation can turn out. The best machine guns, the best radars that we can turn out. Why don't we do that in times of peace? Why don't we give hospitals whatever they need? Electron microscopes, MRI machines, whatever they need. Give it to them. It's based on resources. Money is a nothing thing. If your ship wrecked on an island with 10 million dollars and your wife had gold and diamonds and there's no water, no arable land, no fish, you have nothing. Money is a nothing thing. It's a made up story that support certain groups of people and they call it the Federal Reserve System, which is not federal at all. It's as federal as the federal laundry. They don't have... It's not a government thing. The public is deliberately uneducated to understand how things work. In America, when we had slavery, If you taught your slaves how to read, you were fined. Do you know that? And, in Salem, Massachusetts, they burned women who disagreed with certain aspects in the Bible. - Well, they burned them as witches. - They burned them as witches, yeah. Now, did you know this? That the guy that found those women got their possessions? Their books, their house, their car, their horse and wagon. Did you know you accumulate their possessions if you pointed them out? - I didn't know that. - That should be on our history book. - I can't say I'm desperately surprised. I mean...that just shows you that there are...That man has the capacity to be evil. - No, if you are brought up in... - And even in...Sorry, I've gotta say this. Even in your vision, wouldn't there still be people who are evil. - No. That's what they teach you today. That's not your ideas. This system cannot go on unless it points out: You can't have a system where everybody gets everything, cause there will be jealousy, rage, differences in personalities, some people are hard-working, some are lazy. That's the crap they give you, which is not true. I'm gonna show you how people get to be the way they are. - I mean, I love all those ideas. Everybody can have whatever they want, machines are doing all the work, this is... - You go back to school to learn something useful, a new profession. - But there are people who are just naturally sociopaths. - Not so. That's all folklore, that's not true. - You don't think there are naturally evil people? - Even I don't think there are, I'm gonna explain how they get to be that way. - When you got two children, if you play with the young one and the seven year-old stays there. If you play with the young one, you're making jealousy and envy. I always said: "My older child and my younger child." And said: "This is your baby brother." I would never use one child against the other. "Why can't you put your dishes away like your sister does? You leave everything spread around and I have to pick up after you". If a mother does that, she makes jealousy and envy amongst the children. Women will have to go back to school to learn how to raise children. Now, you're taught in school that plants grow. I'm sure you've learned. And you're taught in school that everybody should have a right to their own opinion. Is that right? Ok. Now, suppose you lived across the way from me and I see 10 guys coming out of your apartment and I have a right to my own opinion. She could be a ballet instructor, language instructor. Never give people a right to their own opinion. If their own opinion is sane, I say: "What's going on there? I honestly don't know." She could be a language instructor, a ballet instructor. But if you give everybody a right to their own opinion "You think man will ever get to the moon?" "Nah, not in a thousand years". I'm not interested in that. Are you a rocket expert? Do you know anything about space travel? I don't want your opinion. - You know, if you had a society as it is today and you have few nations and few people controlling most of the Earth's resources you're gonna have war, you're gonna have poverty, you're gonna have stealing, you're gonna have crime. And then you make laws and try make people ethical and say: "Don't steal" and you put them in jail and you call them evil, if you do that. In the society we're talking about, you produce abundance as quickly as possible and you make goods and services available to everyone. So you eliminate the need for stealing. So you change what you call human nature. It's really not human nature. You change human behavior by making goods and services available. So you don't have to make laws: "Don't steal". You don't call them evil cause they steal. You get this good and bad, right and wrong from religion. But if you change the environment, you change the way people behave towards one another. If you make goods and services available so they don't have to go to work at jobs that they hate and people who have minimum wage, they have stress up to here, they have to take days off to take their kid to the hospital, cause they can't afford medical care, in the United States anyway and in a good part of the world. Then you have people who have stress up to here and it's easier to try and steal and then they would call them evil. You know, you're not born with bigotry or prejudice or envy or being mad. - I have no doubt that if you were to give people whatever they wanted, there would be less crime, but there would stilll be crime. People would have affairs, and the husband or the wife would find out and kill the husband or the wife. - Yes. - That would happen. So you would still have crime. - In the transition, yes. - What? After the transition nobody would have affairs, no one would get jealous, no one would kill anybody? - And I will explain that to you. - Ok. - When I was 21, I worked my way to the South Sea Islands. I wanted to learn what people would be like if they weren't brought up in civilisation. When I got to Tuamotu, when I landed there, I brought mirrors and beads. I was gonna give it out to the natives to establish friendship. Like I come as a friend, not to take anything away from them. But they were already in my hut, three hours after I arrived, giving out my mirrors and beads to one another with a great big grin. Well, Gauguin did that, didn't he, in the 19th Century. He gave them all syphilis, you know. - No I said to them: "How come you're giving my stuff away?" And then they said: "You've got too many. Too many things." I didn't understand that until three days later when the old people pulled a net full of fish, they threw fish to anyone standing there. They didn't said: "You own me 5 bucks, you own me 7 bucks." They just gave you things. And they were completely nude, those people. And I never saw a guy on the island starred at a female body. They were swimming nude ever since they were that high. And when they made love to a female, they had no fetishes. They stroked the whole female, do you understand. There were no *** men, leg men, *** men, what you've got today. All the damn variations and fetishes because women and men have been seperated. If everybody in America had a nose a foot long, you'd have surgery done. Do you understand what I mean? People would run down the street and say: "She's a funny girl". There's no such thing as beauty. If you bring up people to believe in all this artificiality, you damage their lives and make it almost impossible to function. Love does not exist. - Ok. - Let me explain that to you. - But let me read you a text quickly, because this is gonna scroll out the screen and I'll miss it all those. Carol says: "We would have a new higher consciousness in a new world. Your questions are coming from the ego of this society." This is obviously addressed to me, so perhaps she thinks you know, this is...I'm talking from the old world and you're in the new world. And in to some extent that I can understand, I can see that a lot of people would be positively affected by this new world. - Ok. Here's the real story. When I was a kid, I designed an airplane miniature and it crashed into the ground. And an older kid came over to me and said: "Your wings are too far back, move them forward." I said: "How did you learn that?" He says: "Well, I built one and it crashed and some older guy told me. He didn't say: "My plane is better than yours." That's the ego thing. "My plane is better than yours." Kids: "I can run faster than you, I can fight you, my daddy, he can lick your daddy." Where did they get that? In the competitive system. So I learned by sharing ideas, you both gain. If I attack you and say: "I can run faster than you." I always said to kids: "You probably can run twice as fast as me." To get them off my back. Now, a lot of people wanna hurt you. They'd say: "Where did you get that shirt? From the Salvation Army?" That's an attack. But if you say: "I found it in the reject pile of the Salvation Army." There's nothing further they can say. But you have to understand the grammar of motives. Nobody ever read that book that I talked, called The Grammar of Motives, Mind in the Making by James Harvey Robinson, The Tyranny of Words by Stuart Chase. All those books should be in every university. They're not. Because they...they upset the culture. So there are nice people in the Heritage Foundation that remove books from libraries that they think rock the boat. - Jacque, would you abolish religion? - Never, because it will go underground. You have to educate people out of it. - But you don't force anybody. - What we're trying to do is make a society where all the wishes and aspirations of religion and the highest teachers are made into a reality. I don't see how any religious person would be against what we're doing. - You know, in heaven they don't have money. When you do something they don't say: "Ok, you can have this and you owe me so much in interest." - Ok. - So we're trying to make a Heaven on Earth. - Ok. Well, somebody texted in a little while ago, it scrolled off the screen now. But they said: "Why not set up a political party as a starting point?" Have you thought about doing this? - Humans have tried that all through history. - But you have started a movement. - They all became corrupt. - You've started a movement, haven't you? The Venus Project is a movement. - It's a movement towards education only. - Politicians are there to keep things as they are. They're not there to change things. If you wanna be heard in politics, you have to create a lot of money, in order to be heard on the media, in other places. And then, you owe people things. So it's not a political movement that we're after. This is not a political system that we are advocating. - Ok. what about...another text that I had in a little while ago that scrolled off, that they said: "You clearly don't believe in 9/11 as a conspiracy, but do you believe in the Illuminati? Do you believe that there are people who control this world and have a secret agenda." - Yes. - And ok. They've got everything already. They're not gonna be in love with your idea cause they've got everything. - No, they're not. - And we're their slaves and we're their robots. - What do you do about those in control that run everything? - That's my question. What's the answer? - Here's what we do about it. The automobile industry failed, and it closed down and it can't sell the factory anymore. It becomes...it goes into the hands of the government. The banks failed during the Depression. We bailed them out. If you don't bail them out this time, they'll bail them out, but it's not going to work out. It's going to continue downhill. More and more unemployed. Obama doesn't know how to solve problems. He may be sincere, but he doesn't know what to do. So as things go downhill, industry one after the other will fail, meaning If you...a friend of mine owned an aircraft factory. This is true. Her name was Berlinda Joyce. And the government came and said: "We're taking over your factory." This is during the Depression. He said: "Why?" "Cause you haven't paying taxes on your damn equipment in three years." He says: "I have no orders for airplanes. There's a depression on." Take the god damn factory." Don't you see? If you make computers and she cames up with a chip ten times as fast as yours, you can't even set your production equipment anymore. It's obsolete. So I'm saying, we're in a new kind of time where things moving much faster. And there's no adjustment politicans, which is an old system. Our languages were designed hundreds of years ago so we can't talk to each other anymore. We talk at each other. We say: "You should have a nice weekend." Why don't you say: "Have a nice life." Why just the weekend? Where did you get all this crap from? You get it from the society you're raised in. Kids are competitive because they have to run faster, be on a team, that outpaces another. And I never work that way. I shared my ideas with others and the smarter other people became, the richer my life. The smarter your kids, the richer our lives. Every kid shooting up drugs, hanging out in gangs. You know where kids hang out today? In malls. They should be in art centers, music centers, cultural centers for kids. Because the higher the quality of the kids, the richer the life of the nation. - You know, technology is racing forward and it's cheaper today for industry to automate. There's no air conditioning, no people that you have to pay, no salaries, no insurance that you have to pay. It's even becoming cheaper to automate than to outsource today. There many factories at almost an hundred percent automation. So as soon as there are more people who automate, and they have to stay ahead at the competitive edge, then that means that people will not have jobs and they will not have purchasing power to buy the goods turned out. That alone, with many other scenarios is the end of the free enterprise system, the monetary system. - These are all wonderful ideas, but you still haven't explained how you defeat this Illuminati, which you believe in. - Yes, I think it exists. - So how do you defeat them because they don't want your new world order. They want their New World Order. - Fine. Whatever they do will not work, the Illuminati, because their ideas... if you don't update your factory method, you go out of business. If you're a nice guy and you own a factory and you don't like minimum wage, and she pays his help ten bucks an hour rather then five dollars and sixty cents. Then he builds a playground for the children of the women that work in his factory. He's a nice guy. Nobody's gonna invest in your plan, cause they want the bottom line going up. - Companies have succeeded with that philosophy. - So if you're a nice guy, you won't succeed. If you're a son of a ***, you will. And you succeed in the monetary system, but you will have to outpace other companies. If you could put in a...you know what industrial spies are? Like Douglas Aircraft puts people in Northrop. They pay him to see what Northrop is doing. And if you don't outpace them, come out with cheaper planes, better built, you go out of business. So the giants are getting larger, the small businesses are folding and automating, and they themselves will go out of business due to the fact that they are not operating in accordance with natural law. And here's what I mean by that: Man makes all kinds of laws and signs treaties with other nations. We violate most of the treaties we sign, so do other nations. If it doesn't suit their interest, they will violate it. The Bible says: Thou shall not kill. Doesn't say some people. It says: Thou shall not kill. Jesus chased the money changers out of the temple. They're all back in now. And people say to me: "You're trying to make the world a better place, my world is up there." And I say: "You forgot the Lord's prayer." Jesus said: "It will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven." There's no business in Heaven, no private property, no money, no banks. You understand? They don't even understand what they're reading. They're uneducated people and don't know how to assimilate, so they give people intelligence test, to see how intelligent they are. There's not such thing as intelligence. An electrical engineer of 75 years ago couldn't get a job today. Do you understand that? - Yeah. - He was intelligent then. There's no such thing as a civilised nation. No nation is civilised. As long as you have war, crime, prisions, police. When people are properly educated, you find that we learn gradually, there's no fix final frontiers, everything changes. And we prepare people for social change. continuously. That's why they don't say: "Fresco cities is the best." That's an ego thing. I don't care. If you came along with a better design for a city, I get the hell out of the way, cause you can make my life better. You see, ego is when you cling. You say: "Hey, I'm a president and I'm proud of it." Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. So you see...what I want...it isn't what I want is what I've been working for years to try to eliminate ego problems. To try to talk to architects about safety elevators, fireproof buildings. And if I die, great if you carry that out. I don't give a hoot about a medal for doing certain social things. - Jacque, I'm just gonna read one quick text and then we''re gonna go for the break. "I wish I had your hope and I'm forty tomorrow." I don't know who that's from. Right, you're gonna go for a break now. Once again, if you like to text in your questions or comments to Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows, please do so now. Just text 87778 with the word Edge and then your text. See you very soon. Welcome back to "On the Edge" with me, Theo Chalmers and my special guests Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows. Just before the break then, we were talking about how it might work. But I still don't really have a great understanding of what exactly is The Venus Project. - Ok. The Venus Project is an approach to the problems we have today and a possible solution. What The Venus Project really says: "If you don't want war, if you don't want crime, if you don't want sneak attacks, if you don't want highway robbery, serial killers, what you must do, if you don't want those things is declare the Earth the common heritage of all the world's people and take away all the artificial boundaries that separate people, and share the resources of the Earth. What is needed is the intelligent management of the Earth's resources. When few nations control the water or control the energy or control the resources in the world, there's always gonna be invasions, troubles, wars, depressions, unless you do these things. You don't have to agree with me. Think about it and see if you can find fault with it. I'd be happy to learn how to make it better and I'd be happy if you have constructive criticism. But if you say: "That will never work." That doesn't tell me anything. When a teacher says: "That's wrong." It doesn't tell a children anything. - So would it be an end to countries, states, you know, cities? - Yes. If you don't do that, you're gonna have trouble over and over again. Wars are getting worse, universities are better equipped than ever, today. And the wars are getting worse, the bombs are getting worse. We have 300 submarines in America. Each one has more destructive power than all the wars in history. Now, what the hell can you accomplish with that? You have to be extremely stupid, naive, to build that sort of thing, that will wipe out everybody on earth. - Well, maybe there are other motives for building it. Maybe it's about profit. Maybe it's about controlling the planet. Maybe America... - I know what is about. It's about that. Trying to grab the resources... Where do you think Americans got America? They stole it from the Indians, the Mexicans, the Spaniards. After they stole all the land they need, they put up a sign that said: "Thou shall not steal." - Now, that's the same for Britain. They said: "The sun never sets on Britain." Where the hell did they get all that land? They took it by slaughter and killing. - Well, they bought some of it from the French, they bought more of it from the Russians. - Most nations are corrupt. All of them are corrupt. Not some of them. - I have no doubt that's also the case. - Ok. - Ok. So, you're saying: "Abolish your countries, one world government." - I'm not saying that. I said: "We're putting out The Venus Project as a possible alternative." If the world's people decide to join, we will share resources. If some nations won't. they won't decide to join, so they don't get the benefit of this total global system. - Ok. Sue in Cornwall says: "When will Venus be built?" That depends on how much work you do, and if you like The Venus Project, how much work you do and what people do. Roxanne and I have no power at all. We merely submit a possible alternative. It's up to people to say: "I don't think it will work." And it won't work then. - Jacque... - People identify with us, then go to our website thevenusproject.com, The Zeitgeist Movement, the UK Project where we're gathering all of the scientists and technologists who wanna help, all the CAD and animation people. - There's a website called: www.thezeitgeistmovementuk.com That's one of the main ones, isn't it? And thezeitgeistmovement.com and thevenusproject.com The Zeitgeist Movement is the activist arm of The Venus Project. - Jacque, you're 93. Hope you don't mind me saying since it's in the intro and I know you don't mind saying it. Do you think you'll see this in your lifetime? - I don't think about that at all. I do the best I can to try to make it possible. If people don't recognise it, I've done all I know how to do. I have no...I'm not psychic, I just deal with probability. The probability is that we'll kill each other. That we will not achieve that. Because the rate of damage is increasing. We're polluting the oceans, fish are dying, whales are dying, the atmosphere is being poisoned, the water tables is rising up. The rate of damage is so fast that we haven't enough time to wait for people to become smart. We wanna make motion pictures to help people understand. Not what Fresco likes but what the conditions are today. It isn't me thats saying: "I wanna control people." I don't. - No. - And I've taken a lot of time out. You know, I'm 93 years old and all I do is work on problem solving. Not pointing out: "This guy is a crook and that system isn't working." What do you do about it? That's all The Venus Project is about. Making airplanes safer, cars safer, education for everyone, whether you got money or not, medical care from birth to death. Doctors that are brought up to feel good, because they see the end of poverty, hunger, slums. Not a doctor that works for money. I don't trust thoes guys. - I've gotta say a lot of texts we're getting in are very positive about you. I mean, a lot of people are inspired by you. - It's always been positive. - And since The Zeitgeist Movement... - Sorry. - Since Zeitgeist Addendum introduced this direction to the world, we have a lot of people out there who are working towards it in every way that they can. - How can people...If people want to support your dream - They invited us to China, to talk about The Venus Project. For me to design new cities, new buildings, everything. That's why. So, Roxanne and I went to China. They gave us return tickets and they treated us with the red carpet and all that. And then we found out that I was supposed to speak to 1,500 students in their universities. It never came off, cause the guy that invited us out there ran away with the money. Instead of giving people return tickets, they caught him in Las Vegas, so I never got a chance. Then they invited us to Iceland to tell what The Venus Project is. They gave me 7 minutes. - This is not happening now, though. People are asking Jacque to speak all over the world. - You've just been in Copenhagen, haven't you? - That's right. We've just came from a very large lecture in Copenhagen. Jacque is asked to speak in many universities all over the world. - Sorry, this weekend you're speaking in the City University, in London. - That's right. Two lectures. - Two times. You can go...well, actually all the tickets are all sold out for both lectures. After this, we'll go to Mexico in a couple of weeks, where he's being... He's doing another keynote speak, lecture and he's getting an International Design Award for 2009 and then we're off to El Salvador for a two days seminar about The Venus Project. So people all over the world are trying to introduce this the best that they can. Every single month we're in a new beautiful magazine, a very large spread with all of Jacque's designs in them, practically. And all except for the United States, they are not touching it, but all over the world they are doing information. - Let's look at another of your film, cause there's...this is about...well, perhaps Jacque, you can talk over once it starts. I think this is to do with living in the sea, isn't it? Can we get that film up now? Please, pretty please. - Ok, you want me to describe it? - Yes, please. Here we go. - Ok. In the future, instead of taking one container off a ship at a time, the ship costs over a billion dollars, it ties it up for three days. So we've the whole container section floats off the ship. That gives you three times the carrying capacity. All of the ships they're showing the whole container section removed off a ship, rather than one at a time. That's how we raise the standard of living of everybody quickly. Bridges will be designed with single cable. This was designed a long time ago, this film. Today, they're beginning to do that. All bridges are pre-fabricated and assembled in pre-fabricated methods. The trains as you see are suspended beneath the bridge. This is cities in the sea. The function of cities in the sea, is to rebuild the reefs, cause the United States Army, 40 years ago dumped 65 tones of nerve gas off the coast of Miami. How can you love the country and do those things? So we wanna build these cities in the sea for oceanography studies, reclaiming the reefs, and cleaning out the garbage we've been dumping in the ocean for years. That has nothing to do with ego at all. - Or Bikini Atoll, where you set off all your nuclear weapons. - How stupid can you be? - Ok. Let's get back to...sorry, Jacque. - These are industrial plants at sea for mining. The oceans are filled with resources pharmaceuticals and earthquake cities in the sea, that are floating, will house thousands of people, some cities, hundreds of people. It will vary. - This is underwater. - Yes. - Instead of putting fish in seaquariums, we will have underwater observation, where you can walk through tunnels, look at the reefs. Some people wanna live in floating domes on the lakes, with a glass bottom, so you can see the bottom. You don't have to live in our cities. You can live wherever you want to. - This is a helicopter in the middle of that platform that you see. - And all the ships...and those are fish farms in the sea. You can't keep taking things out of the ocean without putting back into the ocean the necessary ingredients for promoting the fish. We just selfishly remove things from the ocean. We pump up the soil, so plants will grow twice as fast. This is a world's fair and it's not for entertainment. It's for taking normal people, normal means mixed up, and putting them through a system that shows them what the problems are. Not entertainment, Disney world is entertainment. - Is this reeducation? - When they go to it, no. When they go to, they come out smarter, they learn new things, that they've never heard. - Houses will vary. I don't know what the future will be like, so I've designed many different types of buildings for art centers, music centers, bridges with towers, offshore living. Like I said, the houses will vary. The airplanes will vary. They'll have no ailerons, no rudders. They'll discharge electrons, no wing tip for banking. When you cut in the structure to make flaps and ailerons, you weaken it, and if the hydraulic lines fail, you die. So here you have space and the Earth, a beautiful gift we got and we're lousing it up, cause we're not wise enough to use our technology intelligently. That's what The Venus Project is about. Is nothing to do with what Fresco wants. It has to do, what is possible. First, we do a survey of the Earth to see what exists. How much arable land, how much factories we have. And then, after that survery, we maintain a population that's in accordance with the carrying capacity of the Earth. If you don't do that, if your population keeps exploding, you gonna have mass starvation, hunger, territorial disputes, unless you maintain the population that's relevant to the carrying capacity of the Earth. Nothing to do with Fresco. Do you understand? Fresco has nothing to say. He gathers that information. - Are you in favor of reducing the population of the planet, Jacque? - Not by force. By education. - What, so people would breed less? - Yes, education. - Ok. - Understanding what the consequences are. - Alright, let me... - I wanna tell you something. - Let me read a couple of texts, cause you'll like this ones. Roxanne Moore says: "The Venus Project is genius, couldn't agree with Jacque and..." Oh, sorry, and Roxanne more. I'm sorry, that's not her name. So, Carol says: "93 and sharp as a button, you're an inspiration." And here's one I don't know who this is from. It says: "A worthy vision, a genuine real start in the right direction. How do we survive the transition period?" - I'm sorry about that, but the transition period will be painful. And if we get enough support, it'll be easier. But it's not an easy task, moving from a monetary system to a Resource Based Economy. It's gonna be trouble. I'm sorry, I have no control over that. - Ok. - As we said, we would like to do a major motion picture to introduce people, in an entertaining way of what this future could be like. And at the end we'd like to have people walk out and say: "Why don't we build this today?" We'd like to give them something to advocate, that's possible and that's positive for the future for everyone. - Since... - And then, we would like to build a first city, a planning center, where people can come and look at it, and see how it works. And then, people from different parts of the world could go and build one in their country. - So how...cause you didn't really answer the question before. How do people get on board? How do they get on board? - They write us, they send us letters saying: "What do you want us to do to help this?" - And what do you tell them? - We tell them to become familiar with The Venus Project, look at our website, and then hold meetings at churches, at club houses, wherever you belong. The Venus Project is not about architecture. It's about a way of thinking. And if people learn this way, we're more apt to have a greatly improved world. It's not perfect. It's just a hell a lot better than what we've got. - If you don't understand that, I'm sorry. - We're asking people... - I can't twist your wrist, I can only tell you, that we are capable today, of producing such an abundance. Don't take my word for it, go to Sears, any departmental store. You'll see lots of stuff. What the hell are you selling your things for? If he gets a dental infection, a dentist makes a 1,500 bucks. And somebody dents your car, he makes money straightening it up. We're all predatory in this system. In the other system, we're all for humanity, and the protection of the environment by all nations. It cannot be done in America alone. If you do in America or England alone, and the Russians and Chinese do nuclear experiments, they contaminate the ocean. We must invite all nations in, so that there's no powerful group that controls anything. So, all the nations sit around in a circular auditorium, a dome about 40 feet diameter, and they talk together about the planning center, so the Chinese say: "I see no place for recreation", and that occurs. It's an architect. And somebody says: "Yes, but what would you do in a hurricane?" "Well, the steel corregated walls all slide, instead of you nailing up panel boards. It shows all those things. What if a guy doesn't wanna live in your city? Says, a member of the Amish. - Somebody asked that question, actually. - Yes, the Amish people, like they wouldn't want to live in it. So we help them build it. We build a city for them but, it will be with fireproof materials. But if the Amish people say: "We like wood". Then you're responsible for fire or whatever you do. If you don't follow our plan, we don't hurt you, we don't remove support. - But it isn't a bit totalitarian? Isn't it a bit: "Do as we say?" - No, we don't say that. - We just say... - You just did, you just said... - We say, if you join with us, we will share resources, if you don't, you have to be responsible for what you choose. If you say, you want a swimming pool, we'll build it for you, but we will recommend life savers that will go out when a person say: "Help!" The life savers goes out and helps them right away. You say: "I don't want that." Well, that's up to you. If you don't want anything we have to offer, you are responsible. But we will help you do what you want. All churches will be free to practice whatever religion they want, but they don't pass the hat around anymore. We support the churches and everything else. It's up to you to turn things off. So I wanna say, we don't have a democracy, we never had a democracy. In a democracy, our president would criticise another country. When he was through, we'd invite the prime-minister of that country on the air, for an hour and an half; same time the president had. Then we'd invite the prime minister of Sweden, he says: "They're both wrong. This is how I see it." That's a democracy. We have every point of view, you got military people on the television, talk about the war. All this military people from the Pentagon, politicians that are pro-war. You don't get any views from social-scientists, sociologists. That is managed news and we don't care for that. Do you understand? Fresco's voice is not the only one. You have every other point. We never build a city until a group of people come in, call the study the negative retro action of any project. When you build a dam to generate electricity, the fish can't get to the spawning grounds. So, we build a step system where the fish can work their way up to the spawning grounds. You just don't build a dam to generate electricity. Now, the computers will tell us that five years after that dam is built, the water table's gonna change 20 miles away, cause you cut off the tributary and that will stop the beavers from building dams, and trees will die. We can't do that, computers can. So I wanna use computers to assist human life, not to operate war plans and machine guns and laser weapons. That's a wrong thing. You know that there's a project under the mountains that the Senators go to in America? - I'm sure. - And can support them for three, six months. What do you come out to? A burned out radioactive planet? What the hell good is that? That's no solution to any problems. - Let me read you another text, this one, I don't know who it's from. It says: "Have faith that people are more enlightened and maybe more receptive than in the past." And they say, this is in capital letters: "Build it and they will come." This is like "Field of Dreams", isn't it? So, build it. Why not build it? Why not get people to give you the money to build it? - We built a research center in Venus, Florida, where we've built hundreds of models, of dams, power projects, bridges, and... - Can people go and see this? - And real buildings. - Yes. - I know there's a film on your work, isn't it? - We have tours on our website. - But it's not quite like that though. It's not quite like the film we saw. - No, we have built ten buildings, we have hundreds of models where we shoot videos and you're asking about what people can do. They can help in anyway that they can. If they can write articles, if they can get lectures, if they can help financially, we wanna do this movie, we wanna build a research center. We can't make it happen. We don't have the funding, but if people cooporate, then we can do more. It just depends on what other people do. - It's not up to us. - This...there's a guy here called Rob in Wigan, he's asked this question in several times. Yes, I'm gonna read it out. "Please, answer this question. How do you get over the language barrier, which can cause conflict by misunderstanding alone." - Yes. - So how do you do that? - This is true. So there is a language that is not subject to interpretation. When you read the Bible, he says: "Jesus meant that." He says: "No, he meant that." And he says: "You're both wrong." So you've got the Lutheran, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Catholic because it's subject to interpretation. There's a language that's not subject to interpretation. - What is that? - Mathematics, structural engineering. When engineers talk to each other, they don't say: "Believe me, this is strong." They give you the tensile strength, the torsal strength, the compression strength. So they talk about things in the world, not words. - People can't even agree how the World Trade Center towers collapsed. - I'm sorry if that's the way they were misinformed. - Or three of them or four. - I didn't make that world. I'm just saying there is another way. Physics, mathematics, chemistry does not cater to all beliefs. It gets out and says: "By the way, your notion about some guy creating people and turning them loose in a beautiful garden and then snakes that walk upright, came and said: "Eat of the fruit of knowledge." That's a terrible thing to tell people. That Noah took two kinds of every animal. If he did, the ship would be a mile long. Who cleans all the crap out of that ship? The stories are so fabulous and stupid, that people that have followed that have never been educated. - I've gotta say, I've always had a problem with that original sin idea. That I was born with somebody else sin. - That's right. - You know, give me my own sins to be responsible but having somebody else sin is kind of... you know. - Well, anybody that follows religion could be sincere but naive. I don't say religion is corrupt. It's based on lack of knowledge. Now, God says: "If you don't follow everything I recommend, the ten commandments and the other things, you'll burn eternally. Now, that's not God, that's a psychopath made by man. Man makes God in his own image. A jerk that creates floods, disease, starvation. But he loves you. - I've gotta say Jacque, I found it very, very easy to keep the commandment about coveting my neighbors ox. I've hardly ever done that. - You don't need to do that in the future. - You don't need to do that because we don't kill animals. - What you mean, we're all vegetarians? - No, I'm not vegetarian. Nanotechnology. Do you know what nanotechnology is? - No, I've got to ask this cause I like eating meat. - You know what nanotechnology is? - I do know what nanotechnology is. Taking whatever molecular structure you want. The nano-technologists tell me they're fifteen years away from it. - So we can make a steak without killing a calf? - They'll be able to make a steak or anything you want without mining it anymore. We stand for tremendous potential. Science isn't always perfect. - This is like GM food and I'm not that keen on... - No, not at all. - No? - No, things will be grown organically in the future. - They're not allowed to genetically engineer plants unless you put it to test, over long periods of time, making sure that it doesn't hurt people. - Before we build any project, we shave off the top soil. It takes a thousand years to make one inch of top soil, and these jackasses put a building right above. Thousands of years of rich soil, we shave off the soil, put it in the soil banks, we use the North and South Pole to store surface food, in case there's an earthquake in Japan, we don't have to go to school and say: "Bring me a box of oatmeal or a can of beans for the poor Japanese." We will use the North and South Pole for food storage. The people in government don't think that way. They make laws and ninety percent of the laws that man made are to control you. That's what religion is all about. Control of people. So instead of making laws, we solve problems. That's a difference. If you took every soldier and send him back to school, and made them problem solvers, what a wonderful world we would have, instead of killing machines. Do you understand what I'm saying? - I do understand. - I'm not interested in... Somebody said to me, what if somebody came along, this is their language, that was ten times smarter than you, what would you do? I'd get the hell out of the way, cause they can make my life better. Ego is when you cling and you want your recognition. - Jacque, we've got to end on that thought. That is all we've got time for. Thank you to everyone for watching our special two hour show, and for those who texted and thanks to my very special guest Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows, who will be beginning a lecture in City University, London, on Saturday. If you want more information please visit www.thezeitgeistmovementuk.com Next week, we'll be back with yet another exciting show that might even change your life. Until then, remember: they're watching you, watching us, watching them. Cheerio.