Ewtn Theology Roundtable - 2013 - 11 - 17 - 50th anniversary of vatican ii

Colin: It's been 50 years since the opening of the Second Vatican Council. Does the Council still matter? Stay tuned and find out. [music] Colin: Welcome to the "EWTN Theology Roundtable." I'm Colin Donovan, Vice President for Theology here at EWTN. I'm joined today by Fr. Mark Mary Cristina of our own friars, as well as theology staffers Cindy Cuellar and Noah Lett. We're here to discuss this great event that occurred in the Church 50 years ago this year and wondering what the long-range consequences of it--what is its meaning, what happened, who was there, what did they discuss, what did they say and what does it mean to us today? All of that in one hour... [laughs] Fr. Mark: Hold onto your hats. [laughs] Colin: Hold onto your hats, right. In our inimitable way we'll plow right through this and get to the core of the matter. Clearly, the Second Vatican Council has been something significant in the life of the Church, recognized most immediately by people in terms of the liturgy, the Mass of Pope Paul VI but also, in many other ways. And it has in many extents been something of controversial--people rattling between the extreme of saying, "It doesn't matter. It was entirely pastoral," or on the other hand, those sort of saying, "Well, the spirit of Vatican II is the most important thing ever, and pretty much forget about anything that happened before 1963." This is not where we are, obviously, and this is not where the Church is. I think that sometimes we idealize something like a Council--especially if you're traditional Catholic or more conservative--and try to see the ways in which the significance is perhaps greater or less than it, than it really is. The Councils and the Council documents are like, in a certain sense, Sacred Scripture. They're not inspired by God, but, there's a historical context in which they were written. So that the author of the Council documents, as in the sacred writers inspired by God, in, in the case of the Scriptures, they had historical concept which is the starting point of any kind of understanding. Now, we know, Fr. Mark, that in the '60s-- obviously, the '60s was marked by many things socially and so on in the United States and elsewhere. But there was even a larger context that went as far back as the First Vatican Council, which ended in 1870 and many other movements and things that had happened in the intervening years. Fr. Mark: Certainly. It didn't happen in a vacuum. The problems, I think, with the interpretation that we've seen in the '70s, '80s and '90s of the Council often are presented that way --that it was like a rupture with a break with tradition and just this totally new thing coming out of nowhere. It gave sort of a, a license --that interpretation--to take it on trajectories that wasn't intended. But no, it's, it very much was in a stream of tradition. We see Leo XIII--the great social encyclicals the industrial revolution. So you have a, even one of them, the new things that we are dealing with today. So the Scripture scholarship, I think the historical critical method in the best sense of the term, the early part of the 1900s started a renewal there. Also, just a real scientific study of Church history and looking at different events in the growth of the Church and of course, liturgical movement that started way back in the 1800s, really late 1800s. So I think all that's important to see that the Council is presenting something new--and it's a new Pentecost, we could say --but it's definitely building on tradition and it's in that context. Colin: And the Church, I mean, you mentioned the Scripture scholarship. This was something that had been written about and spoken about and the Church is not uncritical of the work of scholars on these kinds of areas. But it recognized that, for instance, there were a lot of discoveries of ancient texts. Most people think of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 1940s, almost a complete Old Testament present there. So obviously, some understanding of where the state of Scripture in the first century before Christ and the 1st century A.D. came from that. And even old codices in, in Greek and Latin and other languages, Syriac and so on that were discovered. So a lot of information and the Church was discerning as to what of that to use. But Fr. Mark mentioned the role--the things the Magisterium had done. Of course, there was obviously Leo XIII beginning the modern social encyclical as an instrument of the Church to deal with issues that were current. Obviously in *** issues, there were documents like "Casti Connubii" from Pius XI. But people, if they look in the footnotes of the documents, they see a lot of scriptural reference but also, Pius XII. I think it sort of missed out on people with a sort of, like John Paul II; this is a Pope that spoke on almost every subject that was current in the day. Cindy: Yes, exactly. The Magisterium of Pope Pius XII had already begun to address many of these issues. His 2 encyclicals "Mediator Dei" and "Divino Afflante Spiritu" prepared the way for "Sacrosanctum Concilium" and "Dei Verbum." Colin: "The Liturgy" and "On Divine Revelation." Cindy: Yes. Yes. For instance, "Mediator Dei" teaches on the various forms of Christ's Presence in the liturgy, and you see this teaching in "Sacrosanctum Concilium." And also "Dei Verbum" owes much to Pope Pius XII's encyclical, "Divino Afflante Spiritu." In this encyclical, Pope Pius XII was concerned with defending the Catholic interpretation of Scripture against attacks on the use of science by exegetes who wanted to impose a nonscientific approach and instead, using strictly a so-called spiritual interpretation of Scripture. In this encyclical, Pope Pius XII insisted on 4 things. He called on return to the original text. He also said that we need to go back to the literary sense. We must first begin with the literary sense. Thirdly, he confirmed the importance of the literary form, and as you noted, Colin, the contributions of archaeology, of history and the literature of the peoples of Biblical times. And lastly, Pope Pius XII called for guidelines for the teaching of Scripture for the laity and the seminarians. Colin: So this element was certainly not new. And you mentioned the return to the sources, and that was certainly something big in the 20th century with a great deal of work on Patristics, a great deal of work in philosophy. We didn't actually mention that, but philosophy was a big element. The Church, of course, had preserved the perennial philosophy of Aristotle and Aquinas and of a realist metaphysics up into the 20th-century. Leo XIII was a big promoter of that, and it called for a renewal. Getting back to Thomas, as opposed to merely commentators and those who were trying to tell us what Thomas meant but actually go back to the original text. So you had this return to the sources to the original Scripture text, the oldest and best we can find, because after all, the original texts are long gone. They're all copies and translations of the originals. So we have to recover that original text. And then in philosophy, the metaphysics was established. What's interested in the 20th century is the subjective element. Now, that sounds bad but it means the subject--that is the human person--who knows metaphysically, by the natural law, for instance, in morality what the truth is--how do they in their own consciousness acquire and respond to that truth? And this was the work of people like Dietrich von Hildebrand and Maritain and Gilson who wrote a lot about this in his writings regarding philosophical history, John Paul II in the Second Vatican Council-- actually, Karol Wojtyla, the Second Vatican Council, then John Paul II. So this personalist influence was, was very important. Noah, we can also talk about the Council as a fact of history. Like Scripture, it's situated in history. You want to know that context. What are some if the little fact that we should know about the Council? Noah: Well, I think that it's important to see that John XXIII, when he announced the Council on the 25th of January, 1959, it was Feast of the Conversion of St. Paul. This tells you that he sees the need for a new evangelization. If you read the initial thing where he announces it, he talks about how Rome has become kind of a microcosm of the whole world where there are all these new languages and stuff as people are moving, transportation is easier. He sees that given all the many changes that are going on--new racial groups, new ethnic groups coming to Rome --that while the Church is proclaiming the message there seems to be a disconnect between the message the Church is proclaiming and the people. He uses the word "hubbub" and something like "consistent buzz." Can you imagine the Pope using that in a document to get people's attention? I think they talk about how important it is. The other thing I think we can know about the Council is that it began, not then in 1959 but in 1962, on the 11th of October. It ended on the 8th of December, 1965. So it took what--4 years, 3 years--for it to finally complete itself. During that time they came up with 16 documents. There were 4 sessions. The first session produced no documents. The 2nd session produced 2. The 3rd one produced 3 and the final one produced 11, a lot of work, and it was the longest number of days. I think it was maybe 89 or something like, days it took. Colin: Of course, most of these went through many drafts. It turned out that Curia actually had... There was preparation and different structures were proposed. The Council Fathers took that but then they wanted to bring their own ideas, coming from all over the world, especially to bring in their pastoral experience and to modify those schemas and come up with a document that they felt would meet the pastoral needs in the places that they came from. So, there was a lot of work in that. So it sort of understands why so much came towards the end. I think even 4 documents on the day before it closed were signed off on. It doesn't mean that they, "Well, oh, we got those 4, those constitutions--we better get working on those," like cramming for an exam or something like that. Of course, a lot of bishops, almost 3000 bishops--of course, bishops died at the Council, bishops were appointed. New bishops and new men were appointed to the Council. So a lot went on. I think this is sort of an interesting fact that I uncovered as I was doing my research for the program and that is, if you look at the degree to consensus on the Council documents, it's pretty overwhelming. If you look at the margin of votes, for instance, the document that received the highest margin of votes was "The Decree of Missionary Activity," 2394 to 5; 'Ministry and Life of Priests," 2390 to 4; "Office of Pastoral Office of the Bishops," 2319 to 2; and "Apostolate of the Laity," 2305 to 2. So we're talking 2, 4 and 5 dissenters or minority positions, the 99% of the bishops overwhelmingly approve these documents. Now, if you look at the documents that were voted against the most, there are some bigger numbers here but it's not that much-- certainly under 10% and even under 5 in many cases. "The Decree on Social Communications" was sort of the bad boy in the lot; 1960 to 164. So 164 bishops felt that either we don't need or this is not the document we would write if we could. "Pastoral Constitution on the Church," that's "Gaudium et Spes"--perhaps one of the most criticized of the documents--2309 to 75. So, still 2300 to not even 100--so, that's I don't know what, that's less than, than 10%. "Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christians, Nostra Aetate," 2221 to 88; and finally, "Declaration on Religious Freedom," 2308 to 70. It's only 70 bishops objected and would not vote to approve those documents. So that's... Fr. Mark: Pretty good agreement. Colin: ...pretty good agreement. Yes, that even in a dogmatic Council, as far as I know, if you look at the Councils that are considered dogmatic pretty much from the get-go - the early Councils--those votes were, were always divided. You need, as far as I know, you need a simple majority because the Holy Spirit will drive it in the direction which it needs to go. So I think sometimes the difficulties of the documents are overstated. The real difficulty is getting into the minds of these 2800 men and understanding what they were trying to say. That's where I think most of the, the differences are. Noah's already alluded to the purpose of calling the Council. It wasn't to rewrite the Council of Trent or do anything of that sort--in fact, quite the contrary. Cindy: No. Actually, if you look at Pope John XXIII's opening speech, you'll find that there are 5 things where he gives you the purpose of Vatican II. First and foremost, it was to renew the Church's faith and secondly, to promote the unity of the Christian and human family. Thirdly, he wanted to promote the sanctification of the Church's members. We're all called to holiness. Fourthly, he called it to reform the structures and institutions that needed updating. And lastly, he wanted the Council to focus on the defense and the advancement of truth. So this is what's summed up in his opening speech. And I think the documents clearly follow through on these 5 things. Colin: And certainly, you can see even some of the language here--the promotion of the sanctification of the Church's members. Almost any theologian writing on the Council will say that this idea of the call to holiness, for everybody in the Church-- something the Church has always taught but I think in the great polemics of the Reformation, sometimes it sort of got taken by lay Catholics that, well, it's for the great evangelist and missionaries, the Ignatius Loyolas and the great Franciscan preachers and others to go out there and to convince people and convict people of the truth and to evangelize. They didn't see it as their job. Or the seeking of holiness, the religious do that. They would muddle along and say their rosaries and get into Heaven. The Council would merely put that in, in context, Fr. Mark. Fr. Mark: Right. The Universal Call to Holiness is clearly in the document on the Church; "Lumen Gentium." Everybody's called to that perfection of charity. One thing I like about those points, too, is that the Church is proposing the faith to a modern world that was rapidly changing. So that's like a central tenant that a lot of us think about the Council. How do you proclaim the Word in this modern word? I was recently reading the reflection of Benedict, one of those last statements before he stepped down. He was talking about the mindset of that time going into the Council. He said the Church was fairly robust. It had good Sunday Mass attendance. Vocations were starting to decline a little bit but they were sufficient. But he said there was a sense that the Church wasn't moving forward and It was starting to decline. He said, "It seemed to be a thing more of the past and not the herald of the future." He said they went in wanting to make it a force for tomorrow and a force for today. To me, in my mind, that's one of the great things about the Council--making the faith very relevant, expressing it in a way that the modern world can understand it. According to Benedict, that was the sense that they really wanted to do what the Councils. Colin: And I think it's something to keep returning to because it's so much a part of the context. That in the modern world because of the disintegration of philosophy and the intellectual currents that were--of course, you had Communism, you had Fascism, you had materialism, scientism and a lot of 'isms' competing for the truth. The message that most people took away, they didn't understand these each of these kinds of ideologies was everything is relative, everything is subjective. That called for new methods, methods which would convince on the logic of what the Church teaches and not simply on authority of the Church because fewer and fewer people were accepting the authority of the Church or the right of the Church even to call for belief. That is a subjective thing. Well, we've had a great start to our discussion. When we come back, we're going to get into some of the nitty-gritty, if you will, in terms of the documents and the meaning of those documents insofar as we can understand it. Back in a moment. [music] [music] Colin: Well, we're back. We were discussing "The Context of the Second Vatican Council," and the need for an updating or 'aggiornamento' to help the Church to speak to people in a language in a way that would convince them of the 'splendor of the truth"-- as I believe John XXIII actually used that before John Paul II used it. I think one thing that people sort of don't understand is that it's often made the argument that the Council was pastoral, which sort of means subjective, ignore everything pretty much in there and say, Trent was dogmatic. So all these canons and anathemas, that's all very serious. We have to understand that the authority of the Council is the same on all 21 Councils. The bishops are a universal Magisterium together with the Pope. So they speak authoritatively on Catholic teaching. Now, what they say may be on one hand disciplinary; on one hand, a commentary; and on one hand a very dogmatic statement that is to be taken seriously and even to be taken or if not taken to be condemned and excommunicated, as, as Trent did in most of the dogmatic Councils. But the bishops themselves exercised the same Magisterium of the bishops of each of the other Councils. So we have this context where the Church, obviously, has a very pastoral purpose and there's no question that it was the pastoral purpose of reaching the age, reaching the people of today progressively slipping out of the Church's hands, as it were. So obviously that played a very big part. Cindy: Yes. We can look to Pope John XXIII's opening address where he said... But then he goes on and he says... Colin: So there is that pastoral dimension being mentioned. But it is a Magisterium that is determining which is pastoral and which is a restatement of doctoral truth. So, we always have to sort of weigh those 2 things. On the pastoral side, what... I mean, we've heard some things. What exactly do you think the Council was trying to accomplish? Noah: Well, we don't even have to guess because he tells us, being a good Pope like he is, John XXIII. In the same document Cindy references, he says... It doesn't escape the notice of anyone who reads, like Trent, that it says "Let him be condemned, let him be cursed," sort of statements at the end of propositions and things. You can notice that that's not the case here in Vatican II. It is not a point for criticism of the Council. The Lord, Who in His great mercy sent His Mother to us at Fatima, now sends us a Council so that the motherly, maternally aspects of the Church become more apparent to an age that is falling further and further, though they don't even know it, into a culture of death. Colin: And it's certainly something you see in salvation history that sometimes people say, "Well, the God of the Old Testament versus the God of the New." Why did God change?" No. What the people needed at different times changes and God reached down to the people before Abraham and to the people of Abraham's time to the Israelites and then to the Church and then to our age proportionate pedagogical and otherwise to what those generations needed. So the Council can't do anything differently. Fr. Mark: I think the great error I always see, and I think Cardinal from Chicago pointed this out about oftentimes it's presented as the Church renewing Herself according to a spirit of the world. But that's not the case of Vatican II. It was renewing itself according to the spirit of the Gospel. The Patristics were a privileged, grace filled moment for the Church the Church Fathers and what they said and how they meditated and taught on the truth of revelation. The Council was all about, as Paul VI said on his document on evangelization in the 70's, that it was all about to enable Her to more clearly, eloquently proclaim the Gospel to a modern world. Colin: And it's a legitimate question how effective the Church has been. But we also must remember that the duty falls on the conscience of the hearer, just as in the parable of the sower, the seed falls of different kinds of soil. We can't expect that any method the Church--whether it's the method of strong authority or whether it's the method of open arms, like the father in the parable of the prodigal son --whichever method, is going to be successful with some and not successful with others. Cindy: Yeah, I just wanted to add, Colin, there were some key words that I especially liked in his opening address where he used the words... And he suggested the approach that we want to take is an approach of demonstrating validity rather than condemnation. I thought that was beautifully said. Colin: And it's not that the Church can't condemn. The Code of Canon Law before the 1983 renewal--which was one of the fruits of the Council. We're not necessarily going to talk about it but that was a renewal of the Code of Canon Law towards the both pastorally and otherwise. One thing they did in that is they had these dogmatic canons, these explanatory canons which sort of gave the theological basis of the law that would follow it in order to show this is not arbitrary. This is based on the truth. So that's part of the pastoral outreach. So you still can be excommunicated automatically for freely chosen heresy or freely chosen schism, but that was not that the Church was going to go out and be the pointy end of the sword. In fact, the sword is basically been sheathed and the Church is opening the arms, like I think the father of the prodigal son. Part of that is we've talked about this turn to the subject. If we want to give it a broader name, it's 'personalism.' There are good personalisms and bad personalisms. Everybody understands personalism today whenever they say "My body, my choice," with their little signs. Those who favor abortion are saying, "Well, I'm a person. I get to choose." The difference is they want to be autonomous. The true personalism is personalism within the order established by God, the order of nature, the order of revelation. So the Church has embraced personalism and sort of the existential to the extent, as John Paul II said in his philosophical writings, that the nature grows up and develops towards its full flowering according to its nature and not contrary to it--gay marriage versus the marriage which nature actually instituted. In the realm of marriage, this is changed a little bit how, for instance, the sin of contraception is discussed and what are the ends and the purposes of marriage. Fr. Mark: Yeah, the classic teaching, as John Paul and his "Theology of the Body," and speaking about how marriage is like to be a total gift of one spouse to the other. We can't hold back the fertility aspect, you no longer totally giving yourself. So it's a look at from the subject point of view and it's an emphasis on I think one's personal vocation and fulfillment, examining circumstances, motivations anything that effects the individual and presenting the truth of the Catholic faith in those terms. That certainly appeals to modern man. I mean, there's just been a great shift. You mentioned the extremes. We want to totally do away with nature, but, the Church I think is presenting a beautiful both/and. Here's the nature, here's the boundaries, and yet it also fulfills you. There's also a great gift in marriage that it will bring to you. Colin: Right and I think, you see--you alluted to John Paul and his writing "The Theology of Donation," "Theology of the Body" is a much more poignant and personalist way of explaining marriage. The metaphysical, if we go back to the metaphysical, we say, "Well, what distinguishes marriage from every other kind of relationships? It's ordered to the birth and upbringing of children." So the Church always spoke and still speaks of the primary end from the ontological or institutional view of marriage as an institution of nature is the child and the upbringing of the child, which then creates a necessary unit, needs a unity of the couple --emotionally, psychically, lifelong for that child to be reared. Otherwise, you have a friendship. But in the personalist approach what it is, as you noted, Father, it is to look the eyes of the couple. How do they understand what marriage is about? And to show, as John Paul did, that the full flowering of their femininity and their masculinity is in giving life. So this is, on the one hand, John XXIII you can say, as the past has generally and the Church still does, that the purpose of marriage is procreation and that is its natural purpose, the primary purpose. On the other hand, you can say, people marriage and in truth, they give themselves to the other. They have to be open to life or they're holding back. They're making their gift a lie, as John Paul II would say. Fr. Mark: And I think too, this personalism you see and we call it the ecclesiology presented in Vatican II, this how the Church understands Herself not just as this hierarchical structure, not just as an organization but there are the people of God, there's members of the Church that are constituent of the Church. We call it a "communio ecclesiology" that the Council put forth. The way the Church understand Herself is that it's a communion, as we see in the Trinity, Communion of Persons and that the Church is a real sharing in the mystery of the Trinity. So through Baptism we're all united in Christ, made temples of the Holy Spirit and share in the unity of God and radiate that truth to the world, hopefully manifesting in an eloquent way, "Hey, this is how brothers and sisters are supposed to interact with each other." Colin: Yeah, and I think that collegiality is sometimes misrepresented or misunderstood as, "Well, now there is collegiality. The Pope can't do anything without the bishops." The point is not that the Pope has lost any of his authority but that he chooses, seeing the needs of the Church today, that his manner of exercising that authority and of the whole college--which means them, all the bishops, plus the Pope--is collegial. It doesn't mean every decision the Pope makes is going to be done that way, but, it's going to be in view of this communion among all of the successors of the Apostles. So it is this--there's obviously a tension there between these, those 2 things. But that's a tension to be resolved in love, not by condemnation, to sort of go back to John XXIII again. Fr. Mark: Yeah, and I think it's seeing the complementarity of all this in the Church--that these bishops are successors of the apostle the Pope is a successor of Peter. They work together. We've had the growth of synods. You mentioned Canon Law. There's different structures there providing for priest Councils and pastoral Councils. We see the growth of episcopal conferences--all that is an exercise of this collegiality. Even in, I think in John Paul's pontificate, he and Cardinal Ratzinger were working so closely together. I mean, it's a beautiful thing, everybody contributing to the.... Colin: Beautiful relationship, almost a father and son relationship. You almost think of the family business and it was passed on to the [laughs] next generation of the family. No, I think that's the key thing there. We have to understand that in the end, even with the synods, where the synods of bishops propose certain, certain things, it is the Pope who gets to decide. He has the charism of infallibility. He has a special chrism for his vocation, even if he's not intending to exercise infallibility. You can't always have all the bishops gather together so the whole college of bishops together, the Pope decides. So the institution of the Pope as the principle of unity in the Church, both of faith and of love is absolutely necessary, both theologically and practically. But like the Communion of the Trinity, where there is a Father, you also have the, the, the equality of the other Persons of the Trinity. That's certainly being respected I think. Fr. Mark: I think at the heart of the Communio Ecclesiology, then Ratzinger said that "It's a new 'we' that's made in the Church produced by faith, this unity we have in Christ, that we're brought together in Him, fostered by the Eucharist." It's one of the most radiant I think compelling descriptions of the Church. It seems to excite people when we preaching along those lines. Noah: It's a return to the sources, isn't it? Fr. Mark: Uh-huh. Noah: Return to the apostolic college, which has Peter and the other 11. This is the Church doing what She Herself tells us to do--return to the sources for renewed vitality and energy. Colin: Yeah, yeah, and it can be exercised as the Pope freely chooses and that's an important aspect of his authority. Sort of another neuralgic point today is ecumenism. Some people are for it; some people are against it. But there are good Scriptural and good theological reasons that the Council took up the subject of ecumenism among Christians. Cindy: Yes. The concept of ecumenism refers to Our Lord's prayer in the Gospel of John 17:11 that all His followers be one. This is a central obligation of the Church. Indeed, the whole motive for ecumenism from the Council's point of view is focused on this part of the Lord's prayer, which is bringing all Christian unity into the one Church of Christ, which it clearly identifies as the Catholic Church. So when you look at the document on ecumenism, that's what it's focused on --bringing the fold into one --one Shepherd, one flock. Colin: And since the Council didn't intend to reform teaching and can't, it necessarily doesn't mean giving away the store. But it does mean, I think we haven't seen too many, let's say, collectively, not too many groups have come into the Church. We've seen the influx of more traditional Anglican groups in recent decades, especially in the last few years. But there have not been whole reconciliations really of churches with the Catholic Church. But certainly there has been a flood of individuals as the polemics. the Reformation polemics have largely dissolved with the exception of some fundamentalist groups in the Protestant world. Fr. Mark: Yeah, I remember something John Paul said about the ecumenism is that we have this very strong mission duty to bring the groups together as best we can with prayer, sacrifice and openness to the other. But ultimately, it's always going to be the work of the Holy Spirit to unite these groups. So there have been failures but we still have this imperative to bring the groups together as best we can and let the Holy Spirit work. Colin: And I think always, the hope was that it would be successful with the Orthodox that that itself would be justifying enough. And progress has clearly been made in, in that over the years. Cindy: Yes and the other thing I wanted to mention that I really liked in looking at the document on ecumenism is that we're to pray, always pray for this unity. We should desire this in our hearts is to pray for this unity. So that's important. And then also, we're to also inform our separated brethren of what things are going on in the Church. Keep them informed to what's going on. Colin: And clearly, the Popes have really done that magnificently in their meetings with leaders from other churches. Well, when we come back, we're going to take up how to read the Council documents faithfully. Since we said the documents speak authoritatively, although discernment of the class of writing must be found. How do we then understand that which the Council is saying? We'll do that in a minute. [music] [music] Colin: Well, we're back talking about the Second Vatican Council. We're going to take up how to read the Council documents faithfully. We might note off the beginning here that there are certain caricatures out there of the Council documents. There's the obvious one that, "Well, it's not infallible. It's only pastoral, so really I can ignore it." I think we answered that. We talked about the authority of the bishops to write and speak and expect our docility to it. The notion that one would read a Vatican II document or any Council document, whether it's the first Council or the 21st Council and say, "I don't accept this," rather than asking, "What am I not understanding here that it doesn't fit my little mental categories?" We have to maybe broaden our mental categories and look to see, "How is this to be understood?" As we would when we're encountering what it seen to be a difficulty in Scripture, we don't jump to the conclusion the Scripture is wrong but rather that our understanding is wrong. I think that's where people end up at this point, "Well, it's not infallible. I'm not going to follow it." And we hear that with encyclicals and other papal statements, too. Another way is that, "Well, it's more important to have the spirit of the Council than the letter of the Council." Well, the spirit of the Council basically says, "Let's adopt the ways of the world, let's be entirely subjective and existential essential and we don't need natural law. We don't need anything of the tradition of the Church before the Council." Fr. Mark: In fact Pope Benedict, in speaking about this Year of Faith that this is bringing to a close, he asked us to go back to the letter of the Council and to really read the document, study. What does the document say? And I think it's so provident that he, he emphasized this during this Year for Faith that we, that we read them with faith, that we receive this Council, the great gift to the Church in faith, that the Holy Spirit's speaking to us through the Magisterium. Colin: I think another criticism or caricature is, "Where is this New Pentecost? We thought there would be a revolution and the world would suddenly be changed." I think things got pretty bad after Christ's ministry on earth, if I recall. We don't necessarily see that everything's going to go the way we believe they ought to go. But yet many positive things have happened. Cindy: There have been so many positive things going on and we're definitely not worse off today. There is a New Pentecost. It is very vibrant. We see it in new forms of energetic, outstanding, robust Catholic campus ministries that have developed at secular universities. For instance, we have the "FOCUS." Colin: Now, you're just saying that because you're in love with the Texas A&M students. [all laugh] Cindy: [laughs] Yes, I am and they have a right to have so many admirers such as myself. They're producing so many vocations to the priesthood, religious life and so on and they're doing an outstanding work in catechizing. Colin: Well, and even at schools like Princeton and Harvard, there are, not necessarily--I don't think they're campus ministries because these are basically schools with protestant histories, as my own Northwestern was. But these schools actually have a vibrant outreach to students in those cities and strong orthodox Christian communities. University of Chicago is another place that is developing such a... So there are these highlights out there? Cindy: Yes, yes, and we have FOCUS--the Fellowship of Catholic University Students --that is now present in several secular universities and they also are doing an outstanding work. And I've got to mention the Ragin' Cajun Catholics at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette and let's not forget the Cornhuskers Catholics at the University of Nebraska. But we also have other great things that are going on. Catholic media such as EWTN is everywhere, everywhere! We have lay apostolates in the world--formally Catholic Action--exists today in response to the grave injustice of abortion. We have the Pro-life Movement that was formed and Crisis Pregnancy centers that are located throughout the United States. And there's also a place for women, women such as Mother Angelica, we have Dr. Alice Von Hildebrandt, Marianne Glyndon and Helen Alvare that are leading figures in the Church and in the public square as well. And we have ecumenical conversations that we talked about. They've largely done away with the old polemics. And lastly but not least-- and there are several others --but I want to mention the Catholic lay movements that many of which pre-existed before Vatican II, have exploded in activity. We have Opus Dei, we have Communion and Liberation, we have Focolare, and we also have the Neocatechumenal way that exists today. Colin: And those are just, just a few on the new communities. And new communities also that celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass, as well as those that are, celebrate the ordinary form and these groups are all growing. They're faithful to the Church. Of course, there are groups on both dimensions that aren't faithful to the Church. But all of this is a sign and that and the number of conversions that have taken place. We also have--although we have a decline in the West-- we have the faith exploding in Africa. Here a couple of decades ago it was doing so in Korea and other places. Just wait until there's sufficient freedom in China and we will really see what a New Pentecost is. In fact, I think the New Evangelization is geared at, is what will produce this New Pentecost. The West has had its opportunity to believe and accepts or doesn't accept and that work of the New Evangelization must continue on there. But there will be a primary evangelization yet of the East and the South especially of Asia and that, which will come and someday I think we will see the great blossoming of the Church's life. Cindy: Yes, the other keyword that I want to mention about this New Pentecost is the Church is 'Young,' She is 'Vibrant' and She's on fire for Christ. And that key word 'young'-- this is what's been going on since Vatican II. Colin: Right. So I think it's very easy to find fault. We could do a laundry list of things to be critical of. There's no question about that, especially with the sex abuse scandal and how it's been handled and so on. But like most things in life, whatever the institution is, you have to say, "Those who are leading it, those who are active in it, are they following the principles of that institution or are they not following them?" When the bishops, the priests, the deacons, the faithful of the Catholic Church follow the teachings of the Church and live their lives to let that truth show, there are fruits. When they don't, there are anti-fruits and that has certainly been the experience of history. Fr. Mark: And we have to mention World Youth Day. [all laugh] That's a true... Colin: No we don't, Father! That's a different show where you mention that on. [laughs] Fr. Mark: [laughs] But that's a true microcosm of the Church, and to see--it always thrills me to see young people responding to the Gospel. It shows the power of the Gospel, the call to conversion and we just see that every few years at these events. Colin: Yeah. That's certainly true. I still have my Copa Cabana Beach Mass--one of those things that has positive and negative about it--as my Facebook page as my primary timeline photograph. So that was impressive-- 3 million people. Fr. Mark: Yeah, about 3 million. Colin: On that beach, about 3 million people. Fr. Mark: And just to see young people respond. I mean, in so many ways modern culture gives up on the youth. John Paul just comes and invigorates that and says, "No, the Gospel has something to say to youth. You have a gift to bring to the Church." Colin: And you look at the renewal in the United States --1993 in Denver--a lot of it is due to that. Obviously, Mother's role in propagating World Youth Day to those who couldn't actually be there, and I think that alone has made EWTN, I think, worthwhile. The future is with the youth and the youth who are dedicated and on fire for Christ--this is the future of the Church. It's funny to read the secular commentators when they say, "Oh, the Catholic Church is getting old and these old European men in the Vatican decide to get with the modern world and allow abortion, contraception, gay marriage, etc., etc., etc.." And then 10 people show up at one of their rallies and 3 million show up in Rio for World Youth Day. Who has the youth? It's the Church. That's where the future is. Well, in our time remaining, I think we better talk a little bit about the documents or we'll be doing a 2nd hour and maybe that's not a bad idea at some point to go onto the documented in depth. But we had 4 constitutions-- "Dogmatic Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy," "the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation" and we also had "Pastoral Constitutions on the Church in the Modern World" and... What's the one I'm forgetting? There's a 4th one. Fr. Mark: Liturgy? Did you say liturgy? Cindy: Liturgy, divine revelation, "Gaudium et Spes." Colin: "Lumen Gentium," on the Church, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church" --so, very great themes. Now if we wanted to do a hermeneutic of the Council, we would start with that, I think. You were talking earlier about the hermeneutic of continuity. Tie it together, reading those 4 constitutions and how that would relate to a hermeneutic, not only of continuity but also of, of the Council itself. Fr. Mark: Well, we could start with "Sacrosanctum Concilium." It's the first document on the liturgy. We talked about the liturgical renewal beginning in the 1800s. The Council brought that to a fullness and that's what everybody thinks of oftentimes when we talk about the Vatican II. It changed the Mass and certainly did provided use of the vernacular. I mean, the key word there is 'active participation.' Again, Pope Benedict, in the recent remarks right before he stepped down, about the Council, he talked about that it was a beautiful fruit to, to help the Mass increase its intelligibility. He made a clear distinction between banality, poor translations, but the use of vernacular--reform of the lectionary cycle, emphasis on Scripture and the dialogue at Mass that now happens with the people--he, he praises those changes. Colin: Noah, I think if one is reading the Constitutions and you want to know basically how does that relate to the authority in those documents in the Magisterium, we actually have a guide for that because in 1985, there was this synod, extraordinary synod, called by John Paul II in which it addressed, at that time, a different anniversary--the anniversary of the end of the Second Vatican Council. Noah: Well, and in this document, they look back at Vatican II to help guide the interpretation and then further it along so that the dictates and desires of the Council could actually happen in the world and there would be a greater Pentecost. He's talked about the hermeneutic of continuity which is that the text must not put them against one another but see how they go together, how they talk in a certain levels and authority to one another. The other one is that the Magisterium is the interpreter of everything. The 4 constitutions are the dogma at the center of the rest of the documents. If you want to understand them, you shouldn't take religious liberty to mean, "I can make them mean whatever I want them to mean for my religious life." No, conscience properly informed following religious liberty will do what? Will try to find out how we're instructed to read the Councils. For example, here in the final report in 1985, Section 5 it says... Colin: And I think one thing that goes along with that-- that's sort of the intellectual side of it-- there is the will and the heart side in the idea of "communio" that you mentioned earlier. That if we're to understand, if we want to be in communion with Christ, we should be in communion with the Church in understanding these documents. Fr. Mark: Right, and I think the ecumenism and realizing our unity there I think a great continuity is shown in "Dei Verbum", the document on revelation. It emphasizes that the Church is the bearer of the fullness of revelation-- "Lumen Gentium" talking about the Church of Christ subsist in the Catholic Church, the fullness means the sanctification and truth are there. But that She, She is this Revelation of Jesus the Word, Who comes to us in Scripture and Tradition. Colin: Yeah. So we have to understand it, if we're going to understand it, we have to take the category of teaching and we have to take the mind of the Church as our guide. Thanks and God bless. [music]