Waylon with Sakyong Mipham about How to save Our World through The Art of Conversation.

It's my great honor and far more than honor it's my great pleasure to introduce someone who obviously needs no introduction you are here to see him and hear him listen to him, Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche. The Sakyong is my personal teacher I can make no pretense that running this interview he is going to do whatever he wants and I will be devotedly grateful and excited about that. So this would not be journalism nobody seen tonight this will be obsequious worship. I just finished reading the book in my hot tub at home in the snowfall and I can say that I am ready to listen. so without any further ado: An author, a poet, an athlete, a father and a teacher, my teacher, Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche. Sakyong, thank you. It's good to see you. Yeah. is our sound okay for everybody? So there's a lot of things you teach about as you travel the world, why did you decide to write an entire book on conversation, on this particular topic? Well good evening everyone this is my conversation: How are you? (Laughing) I think it happened very organically you know I feel like myself as a medidator the importance of meditation obviously I feel right connected to but it can become very much just ourselves. And even though we need to sort of develop our own mind and heart. We actually did a video on this you and I in my living room how the meditation or spirituality generally, and your father wrote a whole book about this, can become selfish. Yeah you know I think it was a very organic I feel like meditation obviously it's great and I feel like the way the world is that there's also a sense then we can tend to try to escape sort of isolate ourselves. I feel like that you know we're coming to a really important moment or time in our history as a human development and one of the most important aspects I feel like is not just sort of our own sense of mental well being but its interpersonal in how we actually begin to have a relationship with somebody else. I feel like that very simple conversation, I didn't want to make it too deep in a sense. But I feel like it is deep just a human interaction and I feel it myself, just as you have, it is enriching and powerful and often conversation gets very sort of ignored. Just superficial talk. But I feel like for many of us moments, brief moments and the deep moments we've had effect us deeply. and it's a form of human empowerment. And so it's not so much about the right decorum, even though that's a good idea. It's more about just actually acknowledging each other. So I have about 5 questions already. one of them is aboutright to quorum you talk a fair amount about that in this beautiful little book and one question I have is that being polite you talked a lot about good decorum and not swearing or easy jargon in talk it's not kidding they forgot to erase my name in the liner notes read this one twice but often conversation often being polite can be faked so how do we be genuine and have difficult conversations sometimes that aren't smooth or worn but that can be important to have like an honest conversation without violating the court well I think the court it is hard actually so sometimes you know it's a situation you can express yourself other times you feel like oh that's my family on you so it's just being sort of aware and realizing that it's just I think they're really one of the most important things about conversation is this we say hello you actually acknowledge and then and so viewing noticeable way is it's just some of that connectivity so a lot of times we have something to say absolutely so it's really the notion of how we so even locally politics can be pretty no one's trying to listen or to say hello they're trying to be right it's a very kind of aggressive thing and we're also obviously all seen that nationally whether you're a Bernie fan and you can't stand the Hillary people or the everyone can't stand the Trump people or the Trump people can't say everyone else no one really is invested in listening so how do you bring what you were talking about cut openness or bravery or warmth into a world that is almost having two wars is because everyone's tweeting at each other yeah I mean it's it comes down to simple exchanges conversation I think it also comes down to my experience we're just doing in different situations when they're really intense conflicts like in Chicago like in Chicago that was just Ukraine just that intensity I love it it's just people have not being acknowledged it's either way whether we agree or don't agree it's just there some say somebody was not seeing or respected and then there's system I think the conversation will be said a very human level obviously the politics and dynamics we have our best people thinking about some speed and so I think this is like what can we do when we feel you know what can we do it as as a person who is reading the news or see the news as you mean you know we want to connect in Turkey so that is something and I feel like within that you know there's a principle of life and how do you do it I think it's maybe somewhat simplistic but I think it can you have a popular quote I don't know how much you google yourself there's a promo that's been going on for your assistance in this by yourself supposedly it's the internet so Lincoln could have said it for Gandhi but it says karma is so basic like gravity you almost don't notice it's there and I feel that way about conversation so we take it for granted and yet it can actually create love and you talked about that in the book what do you mean by a conversation can create love mm-hmm when I'm looking at this book of a Masons function and it feel like they could have just noticed and I just actually began composition so this is something very simple you know obviously within a meditation that water into like another analysis but I feel like at the same time it's like there's something that needs to be the basis environmental so it's not one of the main things I say it's not necessarily what the conversation is on but just appreciating human connected so I think that was sort of like it is like areas like water and we get up most of us we all have to have some exchange that can and I know a lot of times when the one he gets easier of official in the hand a lot of times we remember one conversations were going to bed with as good of that whenever it gets to the finish even though I said we do a lot of help in speech they were so divisive but at the same time what are the elements that we can actually begin to shift them and what can we do well that's my question for you mangos if you have a I mean we've all had that experience you have a difficult talk you yell at someone or someone attacks you for something really very defensive and then you think about it for two days and you don't even especially if you're not meditating or if you're a busy you don't even know you're thinking about it but it comes up any gaps like a song that's stuck in your head how do you turn that around I think it's feeling feeling the heart of thing what you didn't do and I fill that with a lot of you know communication I try to emphasize the notion of just human feeling and a lot of times it is not the words to say but it's kind of the energy you put out and so what is it obviously sometimes we are we are strong ourselves so we can do things at the same time you know we all feel and it's it's something we're all going to have difficult conversations in life I think you just multiply that globally and then you get this intense separation so I think your father said something like it's not enough to do good stuff and lose to be a martyr you have to we have to do good stuff for the world and actually when I read that in some book and it really stuck with me how do we actually given that twitter and facebook comments and all these things are set up to you know before you know it people are calling each other racist or sexist or a snowflake or whatever it is instead of saying I understand you feel this way about the NFL players or gun control or whatever is on people's minds but what about these things you know they're not set up for conversation they're set up for grandstanding and so boughten how do we have this kind of love for the conversation when well one of the things I've experienced is that we have just had this general sense that somebody is in charge so as I meet people I think you're in charge we do you know that's one of the things so healing strength it comes across in fact we begin to shift so when it's when it's divisive and difficult a lot of people a lot of good people a lot of elephant readers all here often say I'm just going to turn off everything for a month I'm going to get rid of my I'm gonna close my Facebook account and just get away from everything read the news do you recommend that something often does business you know so you have to learn you know and so I think as opposed to you know so that's the answer I was expecting and that's the delightful thing about conversation is it's an open thing I'm learning and I'm not hearing what I expected to hear but on what I expected here is that it's hopeful to continue to engage but to find out like it's not helpful to run away I guess well I can't want other things when your questions was about I felt like whistling peace conference Vienna we're talking about the ocean of peace part of it is that people think that pieces a weak situation and the reality is as we know like if you're on a path of enlightenment getting to Nirvana getting to the wait a minute hard work which takes strength peace of self maintaining peace in a relationship they wanted you need to be strong in the world you know your readers strength strength testing makes the sense of how we can change otherwise naturally yeah that's profound we talked about that in the book that peace is not a weak kind of just a neutral thing it's an active it takes real in a comida like floor can be fun well I think there was mmm a negative peace which is nothing Bad's happening so therefore this piece and then it's a positive piece with strong piece which is there's actually things that are actually inspirational they're leaving on life and I think when things were bad they get a piece is good in the sense we're just happening at the same time if we want if we want to actually take culture move forward you need that strong piece we need a sense of telekinetics intelligence it takes understandings so these elements I think which were exploring here so maybe a few specific questions from things that really stuck out for me one of my favorite moments was you're talking about when I think when you first got married we're sitting down with your wife and she would bring tea or be tea and you'd have these endless conversations and you keep waiting for her to get to the point yeah usually the funny one neither funny or profound what am i doing a lot of people wondering the same thing so but you discovered something delightful in those endless conversations with a no point yeah I mean that was one of these fishes to the book was that not all conversation to the point physically and I feel like I realize no she just want me to connect it like many people do and as opposed to this has to lead somewhere I to learn something and so it's just basic like just being in the space and appreciate and then you can talk about anything government but if you don't have that then it has to go your way what we have to get to the point and I think which is different because sometimes we do need to pass innovation there needs to be time as soon as other times where it's just even enjoyment and you realize actually in a relationship you don't have those moments that's when you know breaks down there's something just not and so part of like the coffee culture the tea culture sort of that it's bad you know experience you know then you feel like I'm missing out Lucy and that's that's because nobody's right it's transactional exactly yes it becomes so and you said I think in that section talking about your wife and those team conversation is one of the things the book of conversation a little joke there I wrote a book about commitment and relationship so when you're talking about your wife you mentioned this phrase every day in genesee which is beautiful that we can have that obviously with her or maybe not obviously it can be challenging with our spouses you talk about that later in the book that you have to reinvest all the time in conversation mean being interested in what the what's going on with your loved one for everyone who is maybe in long-term relationships out there I think that could be a helpful section what can help maintain the health and delight and inquisitiveness in a long-term relationship like more than eight months maybe there's a sense of experiencing life together which is kind of open up as opposed to just yeah you talked about it specifically like with long-term relationships there can be the certain boredom or dullness or heavy silence sometimes so if you're feeling that what do you recommend doing before me since before I went when humidity will stay it's boring and I said the only boring thing is you sitting there so the important forces use meditation isn't boring so you're just about to Vera said the relationship of staying what who's born exactly and so I feel like there's a lot of things when you project this is not interesting somebody else I've heard something like that before I haven't listened very well but thank you so you've also talked in a section about fostering conversation with children could you say something about that well I can so yeah thank you I think it's you know really this conversations different depending like the conversation children you know it's feelings really important because it's not just what you're saying is how you be in space this real sense of being aware oh you are so there's a lot of conversations happening more through body language and I think in that way it's slowed down you understand and realize that you know yes you know that's it's a human being and you are in sort of de facto teaching them how to communicate we're helping bring that out in person and that is something that they learn a skill that they learn throughout the whole life in so depending on how we were educated or we deal with those issues in life so it's a very important and receptive but certainly relating relating to them equal footing is very important teachers who they are and really modeling behavior like if you interrupt or angry they're going to learn something from that or if you're on your phone or TV all the time they're gonna learn something so on that note when you talk about this in the book part of the reason I felt very timely I was walking over here from the triage on the way to the bookstore and every single person with maybe one or two exceptions out of the 20 or so people I passed on the street was on their phone or listening to headphones and kind of just sitting around the world the kind of delight and relaxation you talk about that conversation you talk about conversation in a lot of different ways that it can be just connecting even nodding someone across the room just connecting almost so with a lot of that going away a lot of people are even in society in public are siloing themselves off how what do we do to combat that I think obviously we're more connected Internet as ever and at the same time this does not mean many people is saying you know they are anyways more disconnected we have people every day I'm sure others having one more conversation and connecting and so there's a bit of like looking at the service this is and this is really not about technology and doing it but this is also saying what human connectivity has to keep their technical activities it's a tool for us like human interaction it's almost like that that's what's so exciting for me reading this is I feel like I realized that everyday interactions that everyday jealousy you talked about can actually save our world on some level that our two weeks can start a war or they can offer some listening or gentleness or or maybe we get off our phones when we're walking a little more and run into people and talk with people we haven't necessarily paying attention to and I think it's making a world more liveable right and just like it's kindness it's just being in a society and just like it's not so much it has to be extra just the ability of the situation we all didn't see space I think what are they a part of that you know part of the way in looking at this is also that we are in training where's me pathetic tradition tradition is part of the Dark Age is just sort of human disconnect if 'ti and black have just been one and so I feel like this is just trying to say that once you shouldn't be ignored because that's affecting our society and so one thing in the book most people probably haven't seen it yet I think the boulder bookstore have two special orders just have the books available tonight so most people haven't how to get is at the end of every chapter there's a well what is at the end of every chapter and they could offer one of them surprise thing know it's basically chapter Ian's their standalone chapters and basically that it is at each the concluding new chapter there's sort of a contemplation on a floor slogan that you know how you know what how do you know conversation it's just a point where you can begin to use it in daily life so I think I wanted to make sure the book was usable and have a full and again it's really more conference like oh right but I think also this little reminder I also like it so that you know what happened and also like thing just there's elements in the book where you can begin to use it as a tool this yeah one thing I loved is there's a lot of talk about listening in here and you said one thing which is particularly maybe for outgoing people are extroverts at least that's how I remember it it's harder it takes more was it bravery more confidence to listen than to talk somebody's really listening this is other times you know say if you want to be heard we gotta listen you know so if there's an exchange going on which is different than just pushing the agenda yeah you know I think listening there's a lot of sort of different listening techniques supposed to feeling listening control there's the control the conversation and basically you can say this not true and you know when you talk to you know diplomats and things like this someone will say oh they were a really good listener is supposed to have just a good talker so it's like they're able to understand them that's part of it because we're talking talking about talking if there's talking it's an SP listening and so we are both participating and we all need to be heard so it's part of the they're gonna feel like this is more common sense than a certain spiritual basically hey that's a lot of what Shambhala the buddhadharma are is common sense right it's not as with some theoretical I think a lot of the trying to you know what are the generation what we have to live and manifest and so maybe we could end and then take some questions with just a simple takeaway question for all of us well it's not simple hopefully it's simple for you which is how do we when we leave tonight and we go home how do we create a little peace and peace in the sense that you use it strong and kind of delightful you talk about celebration and fun and it's not just you know a static piece how do we create a little peace in our interactions this week whether online or impersonal anybody theme and you realize you know life is really precious I think when you just connected that the simple truth and a lot of things open up and I think when we just get disconnected feeling sensitive preciousness of existence so when we have difficulty then you know small conversations are the important when things are going well it's like oh there's no big deal so it's almost a week rounding our self like what are the basics of life and it says and then peace from that point of view is going to be natural it's gonna be the things you want to be able to contribute we're gonna have more organically as opposed to it some sort of technique and so everyone is you know no matter what mood you and it's like appreciate there's something and to me that is conversation communicating with elements mitigating the nature of the world and so I think when we get no no you know which is a feeling in the sense brain or overwhelmed obviously so yeah I thought about so as I was reading this my idea of what conversation was where they expanded because you talked about how conversation like I always talk going to farmers market free therapy like that can be depressed or burned out or whatever and I go there and there's all these little interactions and people say hi sunshine and kids and dogs I'm not dogs do you want abandon but but something about just that walking through all this conversation is really uplifting I guess a a final question I would ask is if some people find that really draining like in Traverse how do in Traverse relate to the lost art of conversation well I think you know this is you know the part of me that's terms are like appreciating just as the quiet and you know like wanting to have your space and so forth and then there's you know this time for that a lot of times silence and just your being together but that say anything can be good conversation if you're okay they're not just feeling the situation yeah they call that the definition of love I've seen that quote it's very comfortable being quiet to know that yeah and I think there's some wisdoms to us being there at the same time part of the suppose when we get to internal tears that we begin to lose perspective there there's something else there that they have a feelings too says it's like an interest in natural kindness with connectivity with compassionate once you begin to really as the other person has feelings too then there's gonna be in natural just what's going on and asking this question so doesn't need to be a hat you know technique and then that's what I think it does become disconnected if you go so that's and we can and we need to do that with people we disagree with not just not just our friends and loved ones we need to instead of what I see on the internet all the time it's just it one second any mark on each other racist or sexist or whatever you know can we actually offer listening to people we on some level regardless racist or sexist cetera we have to we have to begin to live it I think it's part of this notion of how does that change me him to take effect and if this see you related other people my way this was decent and sinister strong and every come to the example as opposed to always objectifying everything yeah you have to change you from going to change my situation so I think you know we're all in a situation where when is the moment we decide I'll do something that's often people will be heroes or some people will respect us think I mean I trust we made a choice to forget for to see we may not always do that every single day but we can have a few moments where that begins to variations there was this fellow this on Netflix I think Darrell Davis know I'm talking about he is a black man an african-american and he goes around talking with *** members and about racists and it's a documentary about these conversations and he says I have no goal I'm not trying to change their mind but he's converted hundreds of races to Lavina and who you know he's doing way to them seeing everyone is human so I'd love to see you to have a conversation so at this point I'd like to invite anyone for if you have a question we don't have a whole lot of time but I think there's mic with Stephanie and I have a mic so if you have a question just raise your hand and all so with the current political climate especially older and someone running for City Council I'm just curious for how do you speak your truth how do you continue to fight something that you feel is so unjust and you know yourself you so how do you speak that truth you hold yourself in a whole bit what you know is right and what nature and mother earth and when you see the big money and everyone coming in I mean geeks to you of anything it's really difficult I feel like we're both challenged you know I think especially intellectually I think it's a very challenging time for everyone when I'm gonna wanna talk to you there are spiritual leaders and the people religions and people who are doing social transformation changes and you know it is very intensive and I feel like part of you know what I would like to just express is that don't lose touch with your own humanity it's like I think that's the heart of it don't lose yourself into processes and how can you maintain your own and I think changing your change is going to take you moving things a certain way instead of tape it's a two-way street it's also going to take time to insertion its identity perseverance and that perseverance has to be here to live with it and how do you live with yourself I maintain so there has to be I think that's sometimes where we get exhausted or we get just well that's a big you know the burnout effectors really big in this kind of activity so I just think we have to have some way of nourishing ourselves and then also see things for your mind well you do feel inspired about something begins you see oh I guess it's not all bad but like here's something here's something and then put things in perspective in that way and you know it's and then it depends on how big you want to be you know it can you've actually put yourself in somebody else's position what are they thinking that's that's a big stretch can you at least not know what is the level in content and often when we try to apply principles to the most difficult situation you know it's almost like physically we're lifting something that I'm not sure we can physically lift so there's a mental hospital so part of it is strengthening our kind of ethical and personal fiber so we're able to you know it's bravery it's these elements and you know as I sit here in the older bookstore you know this place is founded on my father he left today he's lost everything he came to this small little town the country he didn't give in to you can you talk to these principles and that's like who would have known was sitting here order no no training book on this including you and the world we're all like caring which is important we got a character and we can't lose that but we need more than just carrying Amina so you know strength and we don't want to underestimate what humanity is because we do have a lot of different spiritual traditions and meditative techniques from I'm in attendance but we can relate to that and that's what I'm exploring in this book there's a question online I could ask how do we deal with busyness in everyday life we have one of our most popular articles on elephants total busyness is laziness the notion that we is almost like our default go-to to just be busy all the time because we want to do something meaningful so I think it's a matter of being satisfied so when we're satisfied we naturally become less busy and we just so I don't think it's in busyness and speed are connected and so speed in time is connected so and as you know as you look at this with the science of the whole situation is like to the certain degree time is really mentally created we begin to compress time we're living in a society that served the times were living and so there's a moment where we have to realize that we're creating our own stress from that point of view and how can we begin to redefine you know and you know mmm there may be times where we just we're trying to survive so we have many jobs we have to be goodbye and there's other times where they're just look for something that we make us feel full fill the space yeah and I think that it's it's speed can be a form of just avoiding something to just get to the next thing avoiding that feeling then you talk about like avoiding and feeling the sadness or the exactly yeah there's something and so I think it's a lot of it is just you know one of these don't have to be necessarily negative like why am i it's important ask these questions and why my genius and you realize when you meet lots of people people lived in all kinds of ways and after a while we think you can only live in one way actually some true that many different ways and it's always amazing to see how that person actually accomplished wanted they're not very speedy and this person you know you know they do accomplish on their feet so it's like looking at how we can be planet is around Sinatra listened that's great it reminds me of I just have a boss Jeff Walter Shambhala National Center and one night I had me like designing some website or something and I did I worked for like ten hours I was super proud I worked until like 4:00 a.m. went to work it nine or ten or whatever I saw him and I kind of brag about how hard I was working and he he didn't seem very impressed and say so what did you accomplish sure well thank you so much is there a pressing question one final question anyone want to come for them how do you propose having the tech conversations with people who don't have them I think part of it is you know the deal with with the timing of the whole situation and you're trying to resolve something my technique is essentially to not have any hope and then take it from there and so far it's worked because it's pretty hopeless and out of that you realize that you've given up not in a bad way there's something released and then you can actually begin to see what's you know it's hard because you want a person to change so much but they don't you want a situation to change where they don't and that old can weigh on you you were living in the world is if you take it over on every single person is alive and so there's a certain and then also it's important to have your small successes to have your little things that are if you just take on the big things all the time and that becomes it could be wrong so it's balancing harmony so by no hoko means dropping your agenda a little bit what if I look at you do I see the finish line behind you or not are we walking together so most of time we don't see you just see which we do that's your plan getting transactional in a way you know trying to get your father to open up or we have some goal even if it's well intentioned tough is a relative word for some people it's less time and depending it's a very relative every day like there are certain things that are rate of certain countries with a living already tough situations other countries have less difficulty and those are the people that's what they work it's another country we so tough situation situation you know they're still in service memory so it's a very it's a moving situation yeah I feel like when we are in a very challenging situations like right now it's a very important to realize that the fabric of reality is which means we just didn't notice it you know the instability of life has always been there on guarantee or what it's always been it's just now is just more visible and so we're just seeing you know real we're having these it's that's that can be that can be moment where we wake up and we were so the correction now there is so thank you thank you so much it's an honor