Episode 7 - Do you know the rules on touching/helping people with disabilities?

From The Out of Step Tool, it's TOOST Radio with a fresh perspective for people with disabilities. TOOST radio is produced in kind by Entercom Radio Portland with special thanks to sound engineer, Gary Bloxom. Our deep gratitude to you for this generous donation making it possible to explore new opportunities, inspiring guests, helpful resources and more. Now, your host Jerry Pattee. Step into my life with TOOST members who invite you to learn about disability from the inside out. Jerry: Our guest, today, is Out of Step member, Joe Raiden, owner of Joe's Lawn Care. Welcome Joe! Joe: Thank you very much. Jerry: Please tell us a little about your disability and your business. Joe: Well, I have a learning disability and my business is Joe's Lawn Care and it's a lawn company/snow removal. I've been doing it for 5 years so far. I started it, I did it on the weekends for a couple years and then I was working at a place where I really wasn't moving up for whatever reason. So, I just decided to go on my own and it's been taking off ever since. Jerry: Do you have people who assist you? Joe: I do. My bookkeeper is much more than a bookkeeper. She's really my mentor and has really taught me how to do stuff, but has allowed me to make mistakes because we all make mistakes. But she's very receptive of the way, she's not real bossy. She let's me do anything, she's a great help to me. Jerry: Could you describe the process of starting your business? For instance, how did you get your equipment? Joe: Well, I've never had a loan. It was just as I went, I got better equipment. I'm still not in a place where I want to be, but I just started 4-5 years ago and one day I would I like to do this for a living someday and just did it on the weekends. I started calling people and the apartment management places. One place turned into 20 and 30 and 40 and 50, so it was a slow thing though. i've been doing it for I think 5 years so it's kind of a process for sure. Jerry: Do you drive your equipment then to these various locations? Joe: Yeah, I have a truck. You know, I don't have the best equipment, but I have a truck and I put the stuff in it and I go. Jerry: If your business very seasonal, like your really busy in the summer and then not so much? Joe: Yes. Spring and summer is 90 hours a week, totally busy, no time for nothing. And then winters are seasonal. I do somewhere a little bit and it could be a month or two in between work so it's definitely seasonal. I'm looking forward to spring. Jerry: Do you do landscaping, like pruning or planting in addition to the lawn work? Joe: A little bit. I do pruning, that's about it. I try to stick with what I know. I kind of made that mistake awhile back. I was trying to do stuff I didn't really know how to do, so I really try to stick to the stuff I know how to do, but pruning is one of them and that's about it. Jerry: Do you have a standard rate that you charge people? How does that work? Joe: Yeah. Usually it's per job or whatever I'm doing, but there's a standard rate that I have and that rate goes up every once in awhile. But there's a rate I do, depends on how big it is and small. Jerry: How do people find out about your business? Joe: I have a website. That's been the best thing I ever did. I did that about 2 years ago and last year I probably doubled my people. I should have done that a long time ago because that really was amazing because people can Google your name and the more they Google it, the more you come up. So, I'm in a fairly small town so if you do good work, it really shows. Jerry: Well, for those interested that wold just want to browse your website, what is the web address? Joe: It's www.joeslawncare.org Jerry: joeslawncare.org Joe: And if you just type in Joe's Lawn Care, I'll come up too. Jerry: Oh. Right, through the Google. And so, has your business grown to the extent that you would need to hire helpers? Joe: You know, that's always been my goal because I really wasn't treated well in working for other people. I felt it was because of my disability and maybe it was, but it's always been my goal to hire people with disabilities and pay them a decent rate, more than minimum wage. My goal is to pay them $10 an hour. So, it's totally my goal this year, that's my number 1 goal is to do that! So, I hope I'm at that point where I can do that so hopefully I can do that this year because that's always been my goal. Let's get people working and making more than $7 an hour and doing what they want and making a good rate. Jerry: Very good. The business that you receive, you talked about the website, do you have a lot of referral business, word of mouth? Joe: Word of mouth is, yes, that's huge in Moscow. Moscow, Idaho is a small town. I did for the first 3 or 4 years was just word of mouth and that's huge too because all it takes is one bad job and then people are spreading that you don't do a good job. So, word of mouth is huge. Jerry: Do you have much competition in your town? Joe: I do. There's a lot of companies that have been around for 50, 60 years, and they've got all the equipment and stuff. There's a lot of smaller businesses like Mada, they go out there going to get some too. So, it's all about doing great work the first time and clean up your messes. Jerry: Do you sort of network with other small businesses? Joe: Well, actually I kinda talk a lot with the big one. I went to school with him and he took it over from his Dad, so I've gotten a lot of advice from him and so he's helped me out a lot. I don't know a lot about the other smaller people, but I definitely do merit to talk to the people who've been around for a long time in that they've got they big, huge businesses. They're generally more than happy to help and give you advice and such since they've been doing it for a lot of years. Jerry: Sure. In your town, do you think there's a large number of people of disabilities, various disabilities, do they network at all in that respect? Joe: You know, I've not seen that as much, I do know a lot of people with disabilities, on the work site, I'm not seeing that. I'm not seeing a lot of people working, maybe they are wanting to work, but they can't find it and I just think maybe self employment is maybe the thing where people can go out just like I did and go out there and develop your business and make pretty decent money. Otherwise, if they do have jobs, it's not making them very much and not a very good quality of life sometimes. Jerry: Well, your idea's great if you're working for someone and you just don't feel that you're receiving the advancement, the opportunities that you step out and make your own. Joe: I was so frustrated because I did that for 5 years and I saw other people move up and I wasn't even asking for higher pay, I just wanted to learn, but I was never given that opportunity so I took it and I kind of turned it into positive and went for it. It was scary, it's really scary just to say you're going to do something on your own and you hope it's going to work, but you never know. Honestly, it's the best decision I ever made because now I'm strong in what I'm doing and it's the best decision I ever made. Jerry: So, what advice would you have, you're talking about it's kind of scary and sometimes we make mistakes, do you have any advice for people? Joe: I think it's alright to make mistakes. What I see, by the time we put disability, people aren't allowed to make mistakes. I mean, it's alright, make the mistake. Support is huge. For me, I didn't have any support when I started. I just said I could do the bookkeeping and everything myself and that was one of the mistakes I learned. Without learning the mistake...that's how you learn. So, having the right support is huge for me and the right support too. You don't want someone that's micromanaging you and telling you what to do. You want someone that is going to help you and let you make those mistake so you learn. The bookkeeper has doubled my income because it's more professional. She's been great. I'm glad I went with her. Sometimes you've got to make those mistakes. Jerry: Sure. Joe: Because everybody makes mistakes, whether you have a disability or not. Jerry: They certainly do. It sounds too, like realistically recognizing your own limitations, maybe pushing the envelope now and then, finding the supports to do the things that we're not capable of doing. Joe: Well, find what your interests are. I love being outside and working and mowing and it's in the interest of finding what you love to do. Because if you love to do it, to me it's not like work. I'm out there having fun and that's the best. If you can have fun and get paid for it, that's the best thing. Jerry: I agree totally! Thanks, Joe Raiden, for being our guest on 'Step Into My Life'. Be sure to check out Joe's profile and Joe's Lawn Care on www.outofstep.com If you're part of a non-profit organization, visit outofstep.com and create a profile to spread the word about your organization today. Marcus: My name is Marcus Culvert. I would highly recommend The Out of Step Tool for anybody who wants to accomplish a goal. Or people with a disability who want to further a goal, this would definitely be a good platform to start your dreams to come true! Step up your knowledge with TOOST Radio as we tackle the tough questions about disabilities. Jerry: It's time to get real: Touching is a 'touchy' subject! How is anyone supposed to know the etiquette? What seems appropriate to some makes others feel uncomfortable. When it comes to interactions between people with and without disabilities, how can we avoid awkward situations? According to our survey on touch, many people will hug someone regardless of the person's ability. Others don't like hugging no matter who's involved. And a couple respondents thought hugs seemed like "pandering to a person's disability". When it comes to other forms of touch, people who took the survey expressed a range of opinions, from discomfort with being touched by people by people with disabilities, to be being unsure of the rules on when they can touch someone who has a disability. Today, our panel of guest is ready to help us get to the bottom of the etiquette of touching. Our first guest is James Scott, owner of Crescent Vans. Welcome, James! James: How are you doing today? Jerry: Just fine, thanks. Do you consider it a form of being touched if someone touches someone's mobility equipment? Not their body, but their equipment? James: Yes, I do. Jerry: Ok. Why do you think that? James: I'm disabled myself and using a scooter and I've also been in a handicapped mobility business for a long time. One of the first things that we were taught was never touch a person, their chair or any part of their chair without asking. And don't overly help people, that makes them very uncomfortable. Jerry: So, if I'm sitting next to someone and their armrest is just right there, why shouldn't I just use it, just rest my arm right on it? James: That chair is very personal to the individual. It's kind of like the inside of their car. Everybody doesn't like everybody touching or getting into their car. Jerry: Sure. Well, if I'm going down the street and I notice a person that's in a wheelchair, let's say it's a manual wheelchair and it's a really steep incline, it looks like their struggling. Should I just maybe step up and grab hold of the back and push them up the hill? James: No, not under any circumstances. If you know the person, it might be acceptable if you're with them, but I always ask before I ever touch any part of a person's chair. Jerry: Oh, great advice! Our second guest today is Tiffany Kohnen. She's a web communications professional. Welcome, Tiffany! Tiffany: Hi, my name is Tiffany and I am deaf-blind. I still have some vision. I am oral deaf. I'm learning sign and when I consider the form of being touched, I find it acceptable if people want to get my attention because if after they try to wave their hand in front of me or call my name, I still don't respond, then they're welcome to touch with their fingertips or with their hand. Jerry: So, to get your attention, you find it best that they either just gently tap you to gain your attention. Tiffany: Anywhere from the hand to the shoulder is ok, but if you don't touch any other part of the body. You don't touch the face, you don't touch the leg or anything else acting inappropriate, but the hand to the shoulder is ok. Jerry: Alright. I'd like to introduce our third guest now, Jeremiah Taylor. He's the owner of ProActive Sales, Inc. Welcome, Jeremiah. Jeremiah: Thank you, glad to be here. Jerry: Do you use a cane? Jeremiah: I use a cane, yes. Jerry: And how would you respond if someone touches that cane? Jeremiah: I personally have no problem with it. I assume they're trying to reach out and help in some way and I kind of accept that. These things don't happen often, so I just kind of go along with them. I think it's all done in a positive way so I have no problem with it. Jerry: If a blind person appears to be unsure about which direction they might be going in, should someone just take their arm and lead them along? Jeremiah: I think it would be better if they simply asked the person. "Can I be of assistance?". I just think that lately it seems like people are communicating less verbally. They say that a lot about the younger people with texting and all that stuff. They've lost their desire to communicate verbally, but certainly you can speak out and say," Can I be of assistance?" "Can I offer you a elbow?". That would be the nicer way to do it, but sometimes people don't know how to act around the person with a disability because they weren't trained that way. The person with the disability was trained, not the other person, so I kind of give everyone an ok to do it. I think it's all done in a positive way. Jerry: What advice would you give for a sighted person who wants to shake your hand? Jeremiah: Well you know, again I usually don't have any problems when someone comes over to me. I usually just put my hand out right away assuming that if they didn't want to shake it, they're going to shake it now because my hand is out. Jerry: So, you lead my example? Jeremiah: Yeah, I think it just takes the pressure off them because they don't know what they're doing, but if they want to grab my hand or put their hand on my elbow and suggest that they're there, again that's fine by me. But usually I try to take control of the situation because I figure I'm more skilled in dealing with myself than they are. Jerry: Yeah, very good advice. Our two final guests are Marc Lazar. He's an Autism Specialist at Aspiritech and Katie Levin who's a photographer, Software Tester and Social Media Manager at Aspiritech. And welcome, Marc and Katie! Marc: Thank you. Katie: Hi. Jerry: Hi. Why are many autistic people sensitive to forms of touch? Marc: I'll start off with this one. And it's a good question and it's really hard to answer. There are some neurological differences that come into play. You know, it's really hard to pinpoint, there's a lot of research being done, but still not nearly enough research to give any kind of clear answers. What we do know is that it seems like most people on the autism spectrum do have some sensory issues, whether it's being oversensitive to certain things like sounds and lights, for instance fluorescent lighting can often be very distracting to people on the autism spectrum. Or whether it is kind of being under sensitive and needing kind of some extra stimulation, whether it's some toys to fidget with or needing to move around a lot. Katie, do you have anything that you want to add? Katie: I think it does vary a lot. What they say if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. So, the sensory issues with one autistic person will likely be very different from another. I mean, I'm very sensitive to specific textures. But someone else, other people love them. That's the thing with all senses, not just touch. Jerry: And how do you handle situations that might be uncomfortable, maybe something sort of sets off that feeling of uncomfortableness? Katie: Well, because I have, I guess I don't really have a sensory processing disorder, I don't always respond the way that I might have wished I did after looking back on the situation. So, my initial response, the actual response might just be to kind of pull away or to jump back or something. Where as I think about it, it would have been better for me to often say, "Could you please not do that?" or something pertaining more to the specific situation. Jerry: That would communicate with that other person just what was going on? Katie: I would try to, but I have, it's hard because I have sensory processing and I also have social anxiety, so that becomes very difficult for me to do. Jerry: Certainly understandable. I have some quotes from our recent TOOST survey about touch and I'd like to hear your opinions about each one: So, starting back with James. Someone said, "Hugging is more cumbersome with equipment blocking." Like wheelchair, crutches. James: It is more cumbersome, yes. I have personally at a family reunion, people had difficulty dealing with the crutches that I was using at that time. Nothing major. Jerry: Just more difficult to approach you or not be knocking you down while they're trying to hug you? James: Right. They were afraid of knocking me down and I think that was the only problem that I saw with that. Jerry: Well, let's ask Tiffany. Tiffany: They should be able to think, " Yeah, I can approach this person because they want to get to know this person because any person is made uniquely." to be able to approach them and get to know them. To give them a chance to learn different perspectives and realize that they're not so different than people who have a disability. Jerry: Sure and that increases the comfort on both sides. Tiffany: Yes. Jerry: Alright, Jeremiah let me give you a quote here. Someone said, "I am totally blind. I have been patted on the head before by people. I find being patted on the head by people that I do not know to be an invasion of my personal space." Jeremiah: I'm an adult so I don't know if that person was a child, but I can't envision anyone for any reason patting me on my head. I've been patted on my shoulder, I've been touched on my arm and things like that, which again, I don't have a problem with. But being patted on the head, I can't even visualize something like that happening. I wouldn't expect that to happen, especially if the person didn't know the person, I would have taken assault. I would be very concerned with what's going on, so that's a tough question to answer. Totally unacceptable. Jerry: So, let me translate it. Jeremiah: Because I'm blind, if I wasn't blind that's like a very demeaning act to do to anyone. Jerry: Yes, I think that was the point that they were making too. Maybe not so much that patting of any sort can be pejorative and as you say demeaning. Jeremiah: Demeaning, yeah. Well, the idea of patting on the head, you know, why someone would pat me on the shoulder or arm to get my attention, I get it. I usually don't take these things inevitably, I assume they don't know how to communicate with someone who can't see them because we don't have any eye contact. Jerry: Yes. Jeremiah: And without eye contact, it's difficult for the person. That's why I think the person who's blind can maybe put it upon themselves to give signals off that, I'm approachable, I'm here, that kind of thing. Jerry: Yes. Alright so, Marc and Katie, this idea, do you consider it would be demeaning if someone just comes and without warning just pats you in that sort of manner? Katie: I think so. I mean, for something like that, it really, people shouldn't really do that to anybody. I mean, from the perspective of the other person, I mean a lot of times that person might not know that the other person has a disability or blind or is sensitive or whatever, but it really shouldn't be done, that kind of thing really shouldn't be done to anyone. I mean, if you tapped them on the shoulder because they need they're attention, I can see that and there's no way to tell which people are going to be sensitive to that and which people aren't unless you know the person. But, patting on the head, unless it's like a really close friend and they've done the behavior before and it's been like ok, but the majority of the time, I would say no, it's really not appropriate for lack of a better word to really do that really with any person. I mean, I suppose, a dog, but not a person! Jerry: Right. Well and it seems sometimes people, perhaps they just don't know how to respond to the disability and they do that patting as sort of a there, there it's gonna be alright. And so Katie, with autism I think, it's not necessarily obvious to a person about the disability as opposed to someone who is using a cane? Katie: That's true. That's very true. And a lot of times, and to tell you the truth, to makes things even more complicated, a lot of times it is hard to even say that what kind of goes on with me is even a disability. Sometimes, specific circumstances or issues that I have can feel disabling, but a lot of people on the spectrum like to say, "Well, the word that Temple Grandin is different, not less." A lot of on the spectrum, we think differently, but it doesn't mean that what we, our abilities in general are any less than anyone else's. Jerry: Right. Alright, well let me ask a 2 part question for each of our guests today and I'll repeat it as needed. So, we'll start back with James. Why is touch a' touchy' subject when it comes to interacting with people with disabilities, and who makes the rules about this? James: I think the reason that's it's a touchy situation was brought up already, a lot of people don't know who to interact with people that have disabilities. I don't view it as a problem personally, but I know a lot of people who do. I think it's just that they don't understand all the different and none of us do, all the different disabilities. That would be something that would be hard for everyone, I would think. Jerry: And do you think that it might be a factor of age or a time that a person was growing up? The person with a disability that is as to how accepting they might be of others? Approaching them? James: Yeah, I think that age does have both younger adults and older adults, a lot of the older adults have preconceived ideas that they're dealing with. A lot of the younger adults have no conceived opinion one way or the other. They've just obviously never thought about it, which doesn't make them bad people. Jerry: And as long as we're talking about age, how about children that approach? James: Most of the time, my experience is children are pretty much universally accepted. I don't know any problem when children want to sit in my lap or take a ride with me on my scooter, but I could see where another individual might, but I haven't really seen much of that. Jerry: So, do you think that people with disabilities are more accepting of children who just come up and touch them thinking, well they don't know any better to approach me? James: Yes. And they're just curious and they're trying to learn about my disability or someone else's disability and it's a great moment that you have to help somebody, in my opinion, learn something that will help them the rest of their life. Jerry: So, they'll grow up to be adults that understand? James: Correct. Jerry: Unfortunately, due to technical difficulties, we've had to disconnect with Tiffany. Moving to Jeremiah, why is touching a touchy subject when it comes to disabilities? Jeremiah: Well, I never gave it any thought to be honest. I don't know that it is, but I would think especially when you approach a blind person, I think the problem is because of lack of eye contact like I said before, the person doesn't know how to communicate or get your attention so to speak. Because many times, especially in a crowded room, you could be talking to me and I don't even know if because there's so much going on. I can't connect. So, I think the person, I mean, in fact it would help me if they reached out and touched to let me know they were there when they're talking to me. So every disability has a different issue and everyone's personality makes it different as well. But, I could see where it could be an issue to people, but I haven't given it much thought, but like I said for me, it may help me to be focused in that I'm being spoken to in certain situations. Jerry: And so, if I'm in a crowded room and I decided to start speaking with you, it's probably helpful for me to address you by name. Jeremiah: Oh, yeah. You know or be aware to speak to me, if you're 2 or 3 feet, my connection is getting a little rough here, but if you were 2 or 3 feet away from me, you're voice may get lost and I'm not sure you're speaking to me. In a private room, it's a little bit different, but in a group setting or out in a restaurant, like you just don't know what's going on sometimes. That's why I try to be a little bit more assertive to let them know, especially because I don't look blind, to let them know I am blind, I may no know what's going on or I'll tell them I'm blind to hopefully avoid these communication problems. Touching though, I just never gave much thought to it. I don't think it's an issue for me, so I can't answer it really. Jerry: And we were talking a little bit about children. Do you children come up to you or are they curious about your cane? Jeremiah: Well, if Im out in a group setting like a gym, I hear a lot of kids asking their parents what's the cane about and I hear the parents hoping to god that the kid doesn't ask the question again because you don't want to answer the question as I walk by because they feel it's an inappropriate question. But to me, it's like, if a kid asks me anything. Why is that man so tall? To me, it's a question a kid would ask and I don't think anyone should be offended by it. Jerry: Just a natural curiosity. Jeremiah: Yeah, I don't see the issue. Jerry: Alright. And Marc and Katie, why do you think that touching might just be a touchy subject with people with disabilities? Marc: Well, I think that Katie made a really good point that for people with autism whether or not you want to call it disability or not, often times you really can't tell just by looking at somebody if they have autism or not, but there's a good chance that that person will have some kind of sensory issue. Coming from a vocational support background, as a job coach at Aspiritech, I find often that when you're in a workplace and things like fluorescent lighting or unexpected sounds, that may be annoying to a typical worker, but hearing some kind of surprising sound may really ruin your focus and concentration for awhile. It can really throw you off. A lot of people don't recognize what a person with autism has to tune out just to do their job. Katie: I also feel that it's, there's this whole thing about appropriateness and how people are supposed to act and if you do something that's out of the ordinary especially if you're responding to some kind of sensory issue. Like a lot of people with sensory issues, they'll do a stimming, which is a self stimulating behavior where they might move around in a weird way, like rock a weird way, in a way. I don't want to say in a weird way, in a way. They might rock or need to move their hands or any number of things. Fidget and a lot of people in the neuro typical world may see that as inappropriate and unacceptable and rude, downright rude. Marc: If I can jump in for one second, one thing that affects people with autism a lot is that they have trouble looking, some have trouble looking directly in your eye and it's kind of overwhelming in a sensory way to look someone in the eye for many of them. Often times, it's considered rude to talk to somebody if you're not looking them in the eye, so that's a common example that we'll see. Jerry: So, it sounds like communication really is kind of the key, whether you're in the workplace. Katie: Not just the workplace. The sensory problems don't go away when you leave work. I mean senses are everywhere. They're at home, they're when you're traveling, driving in the car or not driving, they're everywhere 24/7. So it's all the time, they're all the time. Jerry: Alright, well I'm going to ask each of our guests just for a closing comment if they have one. James, do you have anything you'd like to say to leave with our listeners? James: I think that shows like this are very good as far as education process for a lot of people and I think that this was a very good subject about touch. I head a lot of different points of view and I think that only shows that there are a lot of different disabilities and people are different in looking and handling things. Jerry: Yes. And Jeremiah, closing thoughts? Jeremiah: Well, I guess just the realization that I don't think of often, but if disability is different, I think it's important that the person with a disability, I think that they're more aware of it, they know more about it, they know how to deal with it better and they should be the ones that try to take control of any situation where they can because it makes it easier for everyone around them because they just don't know. If you went to a foreign country and you couldn't speak the language, it would be great if the person next to you took control and spoke the language. It just makes it easier. So, I think it would make you more comfortable too because the person with a disability would feel more in control rather than have to wait to see how someone else reacts to them. I wouldn't bother waiting, I would take control and give guidance and move forward definitely. Jerry: Alright. And Marc and Katie, closing thoughts? Katie: Well, I mean, I think the issues with autism and the challenges that come with it, a lot it, one of the biggest misconceptions is that our challenges aren't real and that we can just need to learn how we should act and that's there is no just milling what I'm supposed to do and that there's nothing else behind this, there's more behind it than just we're choosing to be difficult. I'm kind of getting mixed up here. I think I've had more problems with people thinking that my challenges aren't real, than people that think that I'm not capable of doing things and that gets to be difficult because then they have no respect for you. That can be very difficult. I'm kind of getting off track here. Marc: No, I think you made some really good points. I just want to add that, when we talked a lot about sensory issues in general and the reason is because with autism, touch and other sensory issues are really closely intertwined. It's not just necessarily an issue of respect for them, but it's an issues of also making sure that they're not put in a position of discomfort physically or emotionally. But, I think it's wonderful that we're having all these perspective here. Thank you very much for inviting us. Katie: Yes, thank you! Jerry: Thanks to our show's guests: James Scott, owner of Crescent Vans; Tiffany Kohnen, Web Communications Professional; Jeremiah Taylor, owner of ProActive Sales Inc.; Marc Lazar, Autism Specialist along with Katie Levin, Photographer, Software Tester and Social Media Manager at Aspiritech. So, what are your ideas about this touchy subject of touching? We look forward to hearing from you about any of our shows. Email your thoughts, comments and questions to radio@outofstep.com The Out of Step Tool is an online marketplace and platform for people with disabilities to sell products and offer services. Go to www.outofstep.com and create your profile today! Step into business with small business expert, Linda Jadwin, President of the Northwest Business & Community Development Center as she helps you open the door to possibilities. Jerry: Hi Linda. Linda: Hi, how are you guys doing today? Jerry: Great, thanks! When looking to finance a small business, what's the first place or organization perspective owner should go? Linda: It's always best to start with the bank that you've been banking with currently. The best thing you can do is go in and find out their other loan officers are and create the relationship with them. Let them know that, hey I'm thinking about starting my own business and this is where I'm at. A lot of times they can offer you information and guidance on....we require a business plan or we require so much of the cash flow or we require so much of a down payment. So you can kind of get their parameters and sometimes they'll tell you, sorry our portfolio is full of that type of business and we recommend that you work with maybe one of our other banking partners that we work with. And other than that, especially when you're starting, I would really recommend to look at your local banks rather than national chains because the local banks like to invest in the local community. Jerry: That's a great idea. So they're building their portfolio as well? Linda: Right and every bank has criteria on how many women-owned businesses, how many minority owned businesses, veteran owned businesses, how many restaurants how many manufacturing. They have a portfolio that they have to maintain as well and sometimes they could just be full of that certain category and it's really not a lot to do with you, but much more with what the bank has available. Jerry: And typically could I just go on website for that bank? Would they furnace that sort of information maybe not their portfolio mixture but just if they favor minority or women owned businesses? Linda: A lot of times they'll have a lot of that listed on there. What you usually want to look for too is if they are a SBA lender, so a small business administration lender because that opens up a few more windows for you. Because those are really based to help startups get going. But really the best thing is really walk in that front door every time you go to make a deposit. Instead of going through the drive-through, really go in there and build that relationship because they become part of your team of your business. Jerry: So it sounds like really presenting yourself? It's sort of a sale job, not only of your business but of your person. Linda: That's very true because you are your own walking advertisement. So when you're walking in there, if you're in sweats and kind of unprofessional looking, that can damage that image that you're coming in with. You need to look like you're professional. You need to look the part of a business owner. Jerry: And I'm curious about just the process of receiving the loan? So, you're going in there. You're presenting? "Hello, here I am. I've got a business." Linda: Yep, you'll start that way. Usually every bank is a little bit different which is always lots of fun for those of us who help small businesses. Each bank will specialize in a certain industry, so that's kind of interesting too because they like to do certain types of industry, they have a good return. What your person would need to bring in with them is going to be a business plan, the financials that go along with that, even if they're just projections and guesses, they understand that when you're new, it could be guesses. And they're going to need to see where you are now, what the money would do for you and how would you be able to pay them back. Jerry: Yes. Linda: And the other thing is, they always want to make sure that you're paying yourself. As you start your businesses sometimes when you're growing, you may be paying yourself even under minimum wage, but they want to see that you are planning on paying yourself because they want to see you pay yourself, pay your bills and pay them back in the loan process. Jerry: So, that way if you're basically working for free, your business might not be as successful in their eyes? Linda: Right. And they don't fund hobbies. And if you're not paying yourself, then that's a really expensive hobby. Jerry: That's very understandable. Are there other alternatives to applying for a loan? Linda: It's growing, it's been a really big change since 2008 when our economy went into it's recession. There's a lot more socially based entities out there willing to work with small businesses. Everybody has heard of Kickstarter and Etsy and those types of. Also now, kind of being a trend of taking 401Ks and investing them locally and self directed IRA's are coming into play. So, there's a pretty big movement on your local community investing in a business because they're willing to support a business that's coming into their neighborhood that's going to create job, bring something, like maybe they don't have an ice cream shop or maybe they don't have a jewelry store and it's something that the community really wants. They're willing to put their money where their mouth is. Jerry: That makes total sense. Linda: Yeah, it's been a really big, so they're calling it from Wall Street to Main Street. Jerry: That's a good turn of a phrase. Linda: Yeah and I think it's really going to continue on because of the bigger banks have their hands so tied with all the new regulations that its kind of up to the people to make sure that your own community is going to make it. Jerry: Yes. Well, again today, we've been talking to Linda Jadwin, President of the Northwest Business and Community Development Center. And we really appreciate you being with us again! Linda: I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me. Jerry: Thanks! Jerry: Thanks for tuning in to this week's TOOST Radio to hear our guests and share their perspectives. Be sure to email your thoughts and questions to radio@outofstep.com For The Out of Step Tool, I'm Jerry Pattee. Thank you for listening to The Out Of Step Tool's TOOST Radio. Find past episodes and many more resources at www.outofstep.com, the marketplace of possibilities. With a fresh perspective for people with disabilities in the workplace and beyond. Only on TOOST Radio.