Debate between Victor Obasohan and Bryan Reece about Abortion

REECE: One of the great political debates we've had for a number of years in the United States is on abortion. Today, we're going to look at the question of abortion. I'm going to be arguing for the pro-choice argument. My opponent, Victor Obasohan, is going to take the pro-life argument. Victor, why are you pro-life? Why in the world are you pro-life?  OBASOHAN: Professor Reece, one of the responsibilities of government is to protect life. This country cannot be in the business of taking a life.  REECE: Have you ever heard of this concept called "liberty," called "choice"? This is a core issue in American politics. And whenever you talk about that pro-life stuff, it's code for: "Tell women what to do in the United States." Women aren't going to take that anymore.  OBASOHAN: Professor Reece, I love women. I have one. I have one as a wife, and I have a daughter, too.  REECE: Why would you want to take choice away from them?  OBASOHAN: So don't give me the idea about women. This is committing ***, this is taking a life. When a government of a society stands by for some of its citizens, men or women, to engage in taking the life of the unborn, it's clearly... REECE: It's not clear where this whole life starts and ends in pregnancy.  OBASOHAN: It's not? After about a month, there's a baby in there.  REECE: That's not clear. That's not clear.  OBASOHAN: Who says it's not clear?  REECE: The scientific community.  OBASOHAN: It takes nine months to have a baby.  REECE: That's right. We say at nine months, you're not allowed to have an abortion. We say in the last two trimesters, you're not allowed to have an abortion. But that first trimester, Roe v. Wade says that choice prevails.  OBASOHAN: Are you suggesting that a government should be in the business of encouraging women to take a life?  REECE: No. Government should be in the business of giving women liberty to control their own bodies.  OBASOHAN: They already have liberty, but they may not take another life. REECE: What you're suggesting is we eliminate liberty in that first trimester.  OBASOHAN: It has nothing to do with liberty. It has to do with taking a life. Women have no right, Constitutionally or morally, from taking one's life.  REECE: Listen, I'll agree with you that a baby is a life in the third trimester, in the second trimester.  OBASOHAN: No. Once the woman conceives  REECE: Once she conceives the whole thing, you say life starts there?  OBASOHAN: Life begins.  REECE: That zygote could not exist outside of the womb. How can you say that's life?  OBASOHAN: Look, your argument is pretending that this country was not founded on Judeo-Christian ethics. This country was founded on those ethics. And to pretend that life does not begin at the point of conception -- REECE: We're not pretending. The scientific community agrees that they're not sure where life starts. So we decided to strike a compromise in the Roe v. Wade case. And we said, the first trimester, we're going to say that is not life, and women have a choice. The second and third, that is life. That is a crude line drawn, I agree, but it is a political compromise. It happens in democracies all the time.  OBASOHAN: This code word of pro-choice is a code word for taking the life of a baby. What do you mean: "pro-choice"? You already have choices. Women are no longer in the kitchens. You know, they can vote. They can run for president. What do you mean, "choice"? They have plenty of choices. But she may not take a life simply because you have the right to do so.  REECE: Well, how about this? Do you think we should go back to the pre-Roe v. Wade days? Would you settle for that? Back in the days when each state got to make up their own mind on whether or not women could have abortions or not. Would you be more comfortable going that direction?  OBASOHAN: I don't think, previously or now, that women have any right, morally or otherwise, to take the life of another human being.  REECE: Are you for the death penalty and stuff like that? I mean, there are all kinds of situations where the state is involved in taking life. I mean, if you're going to make this argument, you got to go across the board and get rid of all these situations.  OBASOHAN: When it comes to the defenseless human being, that child , you call it, "pro-choice"? I think the government has a Constitutional right to defend the indefensible, and that is the child. For those on death row – I’m sure they are not, I don't think this country is in the business of taking the life of young people, so it doesn’t rhyme, but if the government must protect life, those who actually need that protection the most are those who are defenseless.  REECE: What I don't -- what you're laying out for me is, essentially, the argument that we often hear from the Christian Right. And the Christian Right is always saying "You cannot take life, but oh, let's take the life of these people in prisons. Let's give them the gas chamber right away. Let's give them the electric chair." They seem to be inconsistent on this issue. And it just doesn't add up to me. It's got to be a choice issue about women's liberty.  OBASOHAN: Well, I don't mean to speak for the Religious Right. I think the argument is this; that those who are on death row, clearly, must have had due process and, clearly, as adults. But we must, as a society, draw the line when it comes to the rights of the unborn. The unborn is indefensible. Nobody can speak. There is no due process involved. And the least this government can do is to protect those of us in a society who cannot defend or speak for ourselves. That's what the argument is. And for those of you who are pro-choice, you Feminist Movement, you organization, NOW, all these people running around and it is a woman's choice. This is not about a woman's choice. It's about taking a life. Women have choices. Plenty of choices.  REECE: Give me life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These are, maybe, the three most important things that Americans talk about. And one of the problems we have here is that two of these issues, life and liberty, are in that statement. I don't see why you can't accommodate a compromise in the situation. In the first trimester, liberty prevails. In the second and third trimester, life prevails. Why won't you compromise on this whole thing?  OBASOHAN: How can you compromise when it involves life?  REECE: It does not involve life. That is not known.  OBASOHAN: It involves life. You are suggesting -- the current standard is that the first three months, women, you can do as you wish with the baby. Kill the baby. But you are saying that when it comes to the 6th month or the 9th month, the government -- so it's okay for the government to come in during the 6th month and 9th month, and that's okay?  REECE: What do you think we should do when a woman needs to have an abortion to protect her own life? Are you for it then? If it's, clearly let's say, it's even in the second or third trimester. What do we do?  OBASOHAN: If there is a medical necessity.  REECE: Ah, then you can take life?  OBASOHAN: If there's a medical necessity that the life of the mother is in danger , may die, and may not be able to produce in the future and, you know, this medical procedure must be done, then, I think, the society can be compromising. But to say you give the right, the freedom, to women to do as they please with the right of the unborn. Do you know that women have abortions in this country for cosmetic reasons? After about a month or two "Oh, I don't like the way I look. I look plumpy. I don't like -- I'm going to get rid of it. "  REECE: I don't have any evidence of that going on.  OBASOHAN: There’s evidence of that.  REECE: But if we're going to say , you have the right in the first trimester to control your own body, to have control over what you do with your body, you have the right to do with it what you want to.  OBASOHAN: Do we, as Americans, have the right to take our own lives?  REECE: Euthanasia, you mean?  OBASOHAN: Yeah.  REECE: I don't know.  OBASOHAN: We don't have the right. There's only one state in the country right now, Oregon, that has doctor-assisted suicide. That's what they call it.  REECE: No. I know. Dr. Kevorkian is still in jail and everything. But I don't know if we should be allowed to do something like that.  OBASOHAN: I suspect very strongly, knowing you, that you would not support a society where human beings, or adults in that society, have the right to take their own lives. What kind of a society are we going to be if we, as a society, have the right to take our own lives, particularly the right of the unborn? We shouldn’t have the right to do so. And if the government will step in to protect the right of this kid, so be it.  REECE: Well, there you have it. We've got a very serious issue. And I don't see this issue going away for a long time in the United States. We have one group that passionately argues for the right to life. Another group that passionately argues for the right for a woman's right to choose, a right for liberty. What do you think on this issue of abortion?