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I am currently on a plane flying from the UK to Munich in Germany
where I am scheduled to interview this man
I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the holy Quran
and I have no way of knowing where they would come from
but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there
and that this work is going on to discover the meanings of some of the passages
Now allegedly at some point he was asked "What do you think is the origin of the text in the Quran?"
To which he is supposed to have replied...
Well I would think it must be the devine being
Now this is going to be interesting!
In the 1970's and 1980's a number of scientists / academics were presented with verses
from the Quran and Hadiths (stories about Muhammad's life) and asked to comment on them
Some comments were then taken out of context and prsented to the world as if these people felt
there was good reason to believe that the Quran was of divine origin
Thesewere compild into a video called "This is the truth." Various clips from this video are available on YouTube and also multiple pro-Islamic websites
This is the truth uncut - William W. Hay
Right, the first thing I would like you to do if you wouldn't mind
Would be to tell the people watching what your name is please
William W Hay
Now, are you the William W Hay
who appeared in the video I am about to show you now?
Yes, that's me, and that was in Islamabad in 1984 I believe
Let's see...
Well that was the answer to my next question "When and where was this video?"
[Both laugh]
So we are saving on time!
[Both laugh]
Right then, can you tell me...what were you told was the purpose of this event?
Well, there were two events
I met with Sheik Zindani in Jedda in, I believe it was 1983
and uh...
that was uh...
and invitation that had been extended because
we have heard that the Saudis were try to
do things that would make it easier for scientists to
pursue their research in the Arab countries
without interference from the Mullahs
I was approached by the geological society of America
To see whether I might be willing to participate in this and I guess I was the first American to be chosen
to go to Saudi Arabia
So I was a little concerned about what this was about because I don't know much about religion
and my specialties are in geology, and marine geology, and paleo oceanography, and paleo climate
and...
but I was visited by two gentlemen, a Mr Ahmad and a Mr Monsur,
who talked to me about visiting sheik Zindani
and I agreed to do it. I had understood that this was a program that was going
to help to make it easier for scientists in the Muslim world to do their work
Right, okay...
Can you describe what happened upon your arrival? The first event was Jedda did you say?
That's right!
So could you describe when you arrived at Jeddah?
Well I arrived at Jedda and was taken to a hotel, The Meridian, and
then for about four days each day I would visit sheik Zindani
and we would have a discussion about different topics that he was interested in
A very pleasant man to talk to and so on
and he felt that there were certain passages in the Quran that were
not readily explained except in terms of modern science
So I was curious to learn about those and we had good conversations
Toward the end we settled on one topic that they wanted to talk about which was about
internal waves in the ocean
well this is a pretty esoteric topic
and I was really curious as to how they could be anything in the Quran about it
but actually...
there is knowledge of these that goes back a long long way
The Vikings knew about them, and so on
I was asking whether
Muhammad had ever been to sea or had been talking to sailors and I was assured that he had never even seen the sea!
And never talked to sailors!
And he was illiterate!
And would not have had any knowledge about these sorts of things!
So I said
"Well, you know, if there were no possibility that he had heard any of this, or this, or this, or this..."
Then I made the statement "Well then you could say it was information from a divine being...
...but that would require a lot of proof!"
You know, you'd have to be sure that none of these other things had happened
and there didn't seem to be any evidence that one could exclude them from having happened
So when you were saying...
[Changes question] I noticed the thing with the interview that's being distributed
you're saying that the information in the text presented to you was quite interesting
and that it's good that they are trying to work out the origins of this text
and then the the video cuts immediately to a new scene where you say "It must be from the divine being"
Now, the accounts that I've got, there's one here which is a Quran which has got claims for scientific miracles in
and you're listed in the back
and it says, for that part...
"And when he was asked about the source of the Quran he replied...well I would think it must be the divine being"
So are you saying that that is a misrepresentation?
That's a misrepresentations, there's no question about that!
Now that was, I think those quotes or the video is from
the meeting in Islamabad which was a year later which was a larger conference
At the meeting in Jedda we had a final session that was filmed out on a boat
and again the sheik went through his list of things and I explained all the things that I thought might not be true
things that Muhammad might have known and so on and so forth, and he said
"But if we exclude all of those, all of those, then what is the conclusion?"
Well then I said "Well, THEN you could conclude it could have come from a divine being"
what came after isn't of course recorded (shown) and that is my...
probably I think I made a statement "But I don't think that's what happened!"
[Both laugh]
So effectively what he'd done was to say "Look at this information"
You'd presented lots of various ways that he (Muhammad) could have known it through purely natural means
And he said "Well what if he never did this, what if this isn't true, what if this isn't true?"
painted a purely hypothetical situation
and you said "Well under those conditions it must have been from the divine being, but I don't think so"
That's right!
and then the middle was cut out, and then of course the fake question was presented
Yeah, and I realised this had gone on for about four days, preparing me for this
to get to the point where I would finally say those words that he wanted to hear
So he was a very clever person!
Let's see...so that was the follow up visit to Islamabad
You said to me earlier before we started recording, that took place on a boat?
This was in Jedda
Jedda was the boat?
Yeah!
Now the conference in Islamabad, I think the video is from the conference in Islamabad
There there were a number of people present
It was a meeting with several hundred people present
conducted in the parliament building of Pakistan
and at one point we had a panel discussion and that's what the video is from
and what I emphasized there was that it's interesting that these things might be in a religious text but I didn't know why they would be there
and the biggest problem with them is interpretation
because I think the sheik was reading into them all sorts of modern interpretations
which weren't necessarily (the) original (meaning)
And perhaps I should say that I think the problem is in this whole area
is that the meanings of the words, while the words themselves are preserved in script,
the meanings of the words may not be the same today as they were in the year 700
That happens in all of the languages, I don't know why Arabic would be any different
that meanings of words don't change with time
So I think that's probably the biggest problem in the whole thing
is that the words don't mean...
[Hay rephrases] The way the Sheik is "interpreting" the words,
which seems to be his "unique" way of interpreting the words,
is not the same as what the original words meant!
Of course there are various exegeses on the Quran from different centuries
where these miracles...we've not had these miracles described to us in advance of the scientific discovery
but then when the scientific discovery is made people look back and say
"Ooh, look what the Quran clearly said all along!"
Yeah!
Most of them are things that I would think that if God wanted to make a great revelation
these are not the things I would have expected him to reveal!
Because they are all readily observed!
What specifically was...was there one specific miracle claim that Zindani wanted you to look at?
This was about internal waves in the ocean
and he interpreted it with a very modern interpretation I think
You know when I look at the English translation
what may have been intended was to talk about what we call "glitter"
which is the light that you see on the sea floor that's formed by waves
and then they focus the light in a different way and what you see on the sea floor
looks like something very different from what you see on the surface
That'd be an alternative interpretation of what the words might mean
But I would think that anybody who had been to sea
and the Arabs had an enormous thousand year history of seamanship
would have a lot of knowledge about these sorts of things
You gave an example to me earlier before started filming about one place
where two seas are meeting, where people would have fished?
Oh, yes certainly in the Bosperous, yes and that's where two seas meet
the Black sea and the sea of Marmara
The waters flow out from the Black sea
and below the outflow is an inflow into the Black sea
and this has been known for ever because when fishing boats go there the fishing boats...
would normally drift toward the sea of Marmara with the outflowing water
but when they lower their nets to the bottom
the fishing boats are dragged backwards in the other direction toward the Black sea
So I think everybody for a long time has realised that there are two sets of waters there
one flowing out and one flowing in and going in the opposite direction
Any fisherman would have certainly known that
If they'd been fishing for a very long time, which they clearly had, then this could easily be available knowledge to someone couldn't it?
Oh, it would have been common knowledge to those people and I think it would have gone to others (also)
There's also a possibility, I don't know about the details, but fishermen in the streets of Bab el Mandeb
probably experienced the same thing!
There is an inflow at the surface into the Red sea and an outflow at depth
So there would have been the same sort of thing very close to Jedda
that would have been noticable, I think, to any fisherman that used nets to get to the bottom
In light of your previous questions
I'll ask the next questions somewhat in jest
Did you become a Muslim?
No!
Okay [both laugh]
The final questions are really just to clear up any accusations which I foresee coming my way
when I make this video public
First thing I would like to ask you to is
Are you being paid by anyone at all to do this video?
[Chuckles] No, no, no
In fact you bought my lunch, so thank you very much!
He bought my lunch, so I'm not paying him!
Have you been intimidated in anyway to retract your original statement? Not by me or anyone?
No!
Okay, no Freemasons?
No, no no no
Zionist Jews?
No!
No one? Okay!
I'd like to ask you, what do you think was the real purpose of this event?
Well as I say, we thought it was to help make it easier for scientists to operate in the Muslim world
but clearly I think in retrospect is to try to recruit people for the Muslim, er Islam
uh... I hate to say it but under false pretenses and that's a really serious problem
And finally, at some point previously you mentioned an event with your hosts
I think it was in islamabad, a meal after the show?
Could you tell me about that?
Yes, well we had one of the meals after one of the evenings in the conference
[Corrects himself] One of the afternoons in the conference we have an evening meal
And I was seated with a table.
These were all the representatives who were there, except for the westerners, were religious figures in the Muslim world
and I was seated with one group, they all seemed to know each other
and Pete Palmer who was with me he asked the question
"Why are there no women here?"
and we were given the interesting answer that
"Well women can't be here because women don't belong in this religious group...
...women have no souls!"
and uh... we were both rather stunned by that and then I guess in retrospect now we realise that that was a table of Taliban!
So it was a very very interesting experience
and I know that's not necessarily a very widely held view in the Muslim world
especially by women!
But that was what we were told
Thank you very much for doing this interview!
Thank you!
Thank you Bill!
I thank you, very much!