Military Spouse Hiring Webcast

Alright why don't we begin? Welcome everybody to our session this afternoon. Welcome to the folks here at the OPM auditorium and also to the folks on the, who maybe tuning in for the webcast, who are wherever they maybe or across town or across the agencies. My name is Mike Mahoney. I see some familiar faces out in the crowd. Some of you guys know me. For those who don't, I manage OPM's Staff and Policy office in the Center for Talent and Capacity Policy. Angela Bailey is our Deputy Associate Director and that's in the Strategic and Resources Policy Division, just to give you a context of who I am and where we are coming from. If my voice, let me just say if my voice fades or anybody can't hear me at any point, please raise your arm or put your hand up, but I know we are as they say gathered here today to talk about a very topical and very exciting hiring authority obviously, the noncompetitive appointment for military spouses. We issued our regulations on the mil-spouse on August 12 about a week ago I guess. So we wanted to convene agencies and talk about what this thing is, how it works. We're certainly very excited about it. We think it's a great new tool for agencies to use to hire certain military spouses, we'll get into the particulars in a moment. I just want to say that, let's think of today's session as the starting point, it's not one done. If anybody has, you know, that needs a follow-up or would like OPM to come out that's better, it sounded like a plane was landing in here. I didn't do it, I swear. Now, if anybody needs OPM to come out and talk to you or your agency in greater depth or to hold another session or venue or what have you, we would be happy to do that. We, again our interest is in helping agencies and working with agencies, understand this hiring flexibility and use it to the maximum extent possible. So I think we've invited you all in here today to talk about it, but we hope that this isn't just, I want it done the start of of if need be discussions and assistance and what have you from the hiring authority. So why don't we get down to it, as I go through this I think we can play it, we'll play it by here with regard to questions. If you have a question I don't know I mean normally we hold them to the end but I don't know if somebody as a question I guess, you know, put your hand up in the air or for those folks who are on the email I'll give the email address in just a moment, send them in. We'll see how it goes I guess, you know, in terms of taking as we go it over to the end whatever the group has to decide. For those of you who are tuning in online, the email address is fedclass@opm.gov, let me spell that for you fedclass, F E D C L A S S @opm.gov, fedclass.gov. So why don't we get down to it, noncompetitive hiring authority of military spouses, there we go, thanks John, it worked. We're going to talk about what this thing is, we're going to talk about how it works, how it, you know, how you can use it, and so forth. What is it? It's a hiring authority, a noncompetitive hiring authority, we'll get into the specifics about what that means in a moment. It was established by the executive order which came out last September. OPM put out the proposed regulations. I think it was last December when we put them out and we finalized it as I mentioned just last week. What is this thing designed to do? Why are we doing this? Basically to minimize the disruption that many military families experience as a result of the service of the military spouse. To give you an example, there is a lot of military when people are activated, they move them around a lot. We have military bases and installations all over the country. We have them all over the world. many of you are veterans and know that first and what that means and in some instances, for example, when you have someone who is activated and they're deployed safer, for the sake of example here in D.C. at the Pentagon, the spouse might be working for, you know, an employer, I don't know maybe a Wal-Mart or a consulting firm or something and all of sudden they're shipped out to, you know, Omaha, Kansas or Point Barrow, Alaska or, you know, some place in different part of the world or maybe different part of our country and, you know, to keep the family unit intact, all family has to move out there. So what that means in real terms is military spouse has to essentially quit his or her job here, may be in the private sector or maybe another Federal agency to relocate. So one main, the main thrust of this was to really minimize that disruption because these people are making an incredible sacrifice on behalf of those of us, you know, the rest of the American citizens through their service. And, but, you know, we also recognized that military spouses also serve in their own way and they make a bit of a sacrifice as well. So that's part of the intent. Also we want to recognize and honor, the service of members who unfortunately become disabled or even killed in the course of their duty to our country. So that's really the intent behind the system. It's to minimize the disruptions in the lives of families as a result of the more nobler service that the service member has displayed and shown to our country. Let's see, just a general overview of things, what is this thing? Again, it's a noncompetitive authority for positions to in a competitive service, that could be temporary term or a permanent. Sometimes we talk about the competitive service, the acceptance service just as a real brief refresher course. We have three classes of service in the executive branch of the government. We have the Senior Executive Service. We all know who the Senior Executive is, right? The big boss, as we all work for the Senior Executives. We have the competitive services which are most of the jobs in the government and then we have those positions which are accepted from the competitive service, which supplies to the competitive service. I think we all have a general sense of what the competitive service is, standardized government qualifications we take an assessment or some kind of test that come in. We have permanent positions, we have term positions up to four years and we have temporary positions in the competitive service. So just to set the stage, the landscape, the context of this appointing authority is for the competitive service. It's not the accepted service. It's not the senior executive service. So when we fill jobs in the competitive service, we have to post our jobs on USAJOBS because we have a public notice requirement that exists here. We have government-wide qualifications standards because Merit Systems Principles say we all have to be qualified for what we do. So military spouses who are hired under the authority like the rest of us, again I think the plane is taking off, they must be qualified for the jobs in which they're applying for. It's a noncompetitive hiring authority, so we don't really rate and rank folks like that and we'll get into a little bit more as we proceed through this session, but think of it in terms of how you process applications for other noncompetitive folks such as transfers or reassignments or reinstatement eligibles and folks like that. So it's, in that context it can be somewhat expedited from a hiring process from a strategic point of view is to we'll have to do our public notice, but we don't necessarily have to do all of the rigor that is involved with the competitive examining process and again we consider them along with other noncompetitive applicants. For example, when they have, I mentioned transfers, reassignments, form a peace core or just volunteers, people of that group. So that is even nutshell kind of what this thing is and why we are doing it. Now let's talk a little bit about some of the eligibility criteria. Again, I mentioned that it's, our main thrust of this is really to provide some measure of economic relief, if you will, for people who are... families who are impacted by a transfer or military reassignments, you know, it's a relocation so that's one criteria as you can see on the slide and as you see on the regulation, there are certain, they're more specifics that apply, that happens. For the people who - the spouses who relocate, it's also for spouses who of military or service members who have a 100% disability as a result of your active in the service and that could be a disability as documented by either of the veterans, Department of Veterans Affairs or by a Department of Defense, one of the components, the army, the navy, the air force or whatever. Sometimes they issue documentation to an individual's disability and it's also for the un-remarried widows and widowers, again members are killed while on active duty obviously that's the supreme sacrifice that any of these brave men and women make for us. So three categories of folks is, you know, it for any military spouse anywhere, no it's for people that are impacted by relocation. I'll talk a little bit about the specific of that. It's for the spouses, the 100% disabled and spouses of service members who are killed while on active duty. I'll talk a little bit about some of the terminology just overall in the same table and we understand they were coming from, again a service member is an individual who is called up on active duty. It's not active duty for training. In the case of the spouses that might be eligible under relocation component, the first of three that we just mentioned, as you can see on the slide certain conditions they have to serve for more than 180 consecutive days and other for training again for the spouses of service members who are 100% disabled, they basically just need the documentation and then the folks who are deceased. I think those latter two categories kind of speak for themselves. We think relocation is the technical term that we use in our regulations that you'll see is called a permanent change of station, that's a DoD or military term. Some of you maybe familiar with that. Basically as the name implies, a permanent change of stations is just that. It's not a temporary assignment or reassignment or a temporary detail. It is, you know, now you are packing up and moving to a different military location and the idea is you go permanently until you are further reassigned, whereas, you know maybe we're sending you there on a short sting for two months or something, so it has to be a permanent assignment or reassignment. We have covered the 100% disabled a little bit. Again, it's a service connected disability and it has to be documented by either of the Department of Defense and one of the branches of the armed forces or the Department of Veterans Affairs. And for the third category, individuals who are killed while on active duty, we're using the term killed while on active duty broadly, you know, do they, does this mean they have to be, to give you an example, shot by the enemy or so forth. No, not specifically or necessarily. We're saying anyone who dies while on active duty. Again if you remember the intent of this was really to get at the disruptions that are caused in the lives of these military families. We didn't want to get into splitting hairs over, while somebody dies or somebody gets injured and later dies from it or do they have to actually be shot or killed or what have you. It could be an enemy attack or it could be an accident, a disease, natural causes. If an individual or service member loses his or her life while on active duty then the spouses would be eligible under these rules. So again our intent was to take the broadest possible application of the term killed to benefit the widest number of military spouses out there that might impacted by this. Again, just to recap our three categories; so we have PCS move right, relocation, and we have the disability, we have death of the service member while on active duty. Let's talk a little bit each of those. For relocation, for a PCS move, the military, the spouse... the rules on those would be typically authorize your family to come along. No, but for example, the example I talked about earlier if we're transferring somebody who is on active duty maybe from the Pentagon, to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas or Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, and the orders authorize a spouse and/or dependents, then the spouse will be eligible. So not all, you know, it's a minor distinction, but not all PCS orders would indicate the spouse. They have to be indicated on the orders for the spouse to be eligible for the relocation side. Eligibility for the spouse to use it for the non competitive authority is limited to the geographic area, which is indicated on the PCS orders. We're saying that it's, you know, the duty station and surrounding area within a reasonable daily commuting distance. We're not going to, OPM isn't going to prescribe what that distance is. We're going to leave that up to the agencies. If someone, if you are in North Carolina you've got someone who lives in California saying "Oh! I can commute from California" well that's not a reasonable daily commuting distance, but you know, if it's maybe, I don't know maybe 30 miles that might be, but we're not prescribing that. We're leaving that up for the agencies to determine. You might check your designations of competitive areas on the rift side. Often times you have just determined what that would be for competitive area determinations. You could look at that. I don't want to belabor the point too much. The point is we're deferring to the agencies to use it, just come, whatever you come up with it should be something that is, is again meets the reasonable test. Do you have a question? No, okay very good. Another point we want to make is the spouse has to relocate, okay, the spouse has to relocate. Let me give you an example. I am in the army... I am in the air force and I'm reassigned let's say Wright-Patterson, the Air Force base in Ohio. The orders specify that my wife is, can come with me. She says, well, no I like my job here and I don't want to come I'm going to stay here and you can, we'll have houses and two things and visit on the weekend and all that. She stays here and continues to work. Could she use this to get a job in an agency here in DC? No, why because she hasn't relocated and again let's get you remember the basics of the intent is to somehow get out or rectify or address the disruption caused in people's lives and if someone is staying in their job, staying in their home, they are not moving and there is minimal if no disruption at all then, then they wouldn't be eligible. So you do have to actually relocate. They have to be indicated or specified on the orders as a spouse or dependent travel and they actually have to go and relocate. Yes sir. [Inaudible] We're going to bring a microphone to you so that we can repeat the question, just so that everybody has benefit of hearing it thank you Brenda. Sure what kind of documentation is needed to prove the relocation like a... There are different ways that the agencies can get at that. I think one thing you could probably do maybe even get a statement signed by the spouse that he or she is relocated. You might follow up with references on their resume. They have to apply for these jobs, the same as any other applicant. This is just a hiring authority and there will be references and things or you could call their previous employer and say, well, they still or whatever the references to see whether they've actually moved, again maybe have signed statement by them. So there is a variety of ways to do it. That's something that we might contemplate in our Qs&As or our supplemental guidance that we are going to put out there. I think we will have additional guidance on that, but I don't think there is any one thing that will do that and again we will leave it up to the agencies to exercise their diligence and find and checking that, but several ways that we can... that we can do it. Okay, good question, thank you. Eligibility, if it's based on the second category, if it's based on a 100% disability again they need a diability rating from either the Department of Defense or the Department of Veterans Affairs. There is no geographic restriction on spouses who are eligible under the 100% disability criteria and I think for obvious reasons because the eligibility doesn't derive from a relocation move. If someone is on active duty, they are in different part of the world, unfortunately they're wounded and can't resume their normal career or career in the military. There is a, obviously an economic disruption there along with other disruptions, but no geographic restriction for the spouses who derive their eligibility based on the 100% disability. Same thing for the spouses who derive their eligibility based on the death of a service member, no geographic restriction for the same reasons and again just to reiterate that the individual or the service member must have been killed while on active duty and as long as the individual looses their life while on active duty that's the bar, we have another question. For the disability part, I don't think I have that slide. In the package you don't have it. Okay, yeah we'll make sure, we are going to post this, so it will available electronically. We'll make sure that we get it out to you folks before the then. So we'll make sure you have it and we will make sure you have a copy of the regulation too, because obviously this is just sort of a synopsis of what's in the rag, but see me afterwards, we'll get your email and make sure that we get it out to you. Yeah, we'll make sure that all the attendees have it. Sorry about that. Yeah, I mean again I think we covered this, but just... spouse must be the unmarried widow or widower of the service member. Just the presumption there is that if there was a obviously a disruption in the life, obviously a death that's understating it so much, but if somebody does remarry then they are not eligible under this authority. I'll talk a little bit some of the proof of eligibility. So we put a job out and somebody shows up and how we know they are an eligible spouse. Well, obviously we are going to need some proof of marriage to the service member whether that's on the, that maybe indicated on the orders, the PCS orders. If it wasn't a PCS or in the context of PCS that might be on the orders and maybe a copy of a marriage certificate or some other proof, yes we have another question. Yes, I was just wondering for the unmarried widow if that person gets married after they acquire a position what happens. If the... the question is if the person gets married after they use this eligibility and get a position, they keep their position certainly. We're not going to put them out on the street. I think if that happens. I think we would conclude that the authority worked well because it helped a military spouse who at that time was a widow or widower find a Federal job. So now if it happens after the fact, after they are on board, after people are on board, they are treated same as anybody else, we are not to go after and say wait a minute, you can't get married again or if you did well, so much for your appointment, no, no, no. I think we have another question down here, if we can wait for the microphone. I have a question on PCS. If the spouse doesn't come with them right away but waits for six months, would they be eligible when they do relocate? Yes, the spouses have two years from the date of the PCS order to relocate, because obviously in any kind of a relocation you got to pack your stuff up, you got to find housing. I think the Department of Defense is generally pretty good about helping families do that and facilitate that, but there maybe other consideration, there maybe family that stays behind or you know a dependent, and that you need to take care of those things. So they'll have two years to use the eligibility from the date of the orders. Okay, so proof of eligibility, again we talked about the proof of marriage and a copy of the PCS orders. We actually need to see proof that we'll get to you in just a second. We need to see some proof that they were authorized for dependent travel. Again not all military orders and not all deployments on active duty specify that, This is only for the ones that do because again the intent is the family is either uprooted and relocate so that we need a copy of the orders that specify that. Yes, ma'am? This might be a dumb question, because I am not very familiar with PCS orders in general, but the military spouse has to be in the active duty status for at least 180 days. Do PCS orders normally include the length of time of active duty service. Like we need a DD 214, or I mean, that wouldn't even apply because the person got separated but... Right. Yeah, I mean we have someone from Navy here that says yes they do. They do that, yeah. So the PCS, order, thank you, I appreciate that, the PCS orders will indicate the length of the tour in addition to dependent travel as well, and any one who is authorized under it and of course the location which is a key. So we talked about the eligibility. We need a copy of the actual orders. If there is a DD 214, if there is anything, you know it may not hurt to look at that also, if there is any doubt. I think we should take the approach that we want to do what we can to try to help these military spouses to the extent possible and we don't want to make it burdensome or be bureaucratic in any sense, but maybe if we need a DD 214 or something isn't clear, we can always ask or ask the individual to provide additional piece of documentation, I think usually they'll have that. Question. Yes we have two questions, we'll get to the gentleman in a moment. Yes Mike, is there a Grandfather Clause for those spouses that may have PCS prior to the regulation coming on? Good question, is there a Grandfather Clause for people who may have PCS prior to the regulation coming out. Not specifically, but the way it's addressed or handled is again individuals have two years from the date of their PCS orders. So if the date of the order was within two years of this regulation coming out, they would still have their eligibility. Mike from an accountability standpoint, recommendation as far as with document that 180 days that the spouse who is requesting for preference or a non-competitive appointment should request a Statement of Service from their spouse, that's a service member. So wouldn't the statement of service will actually identify the periods so that way the documentation is uniform across the board. So there is not individuals, supervisors just doing letters and all because at the same time too with these preference we got to make sure that they are being done accordingly according to the intent of the law, so that's what the accountability falls into it and make sure that the documentation is uniform too. So that might be a recommendation with, coupled with a PCS or as a statement of service. Okay, good suggestion. I would just say again, well only a couple of thoughts on this. I think my experience has been that sometimes the different branches they may, I don't know that there is uniformity, I'll defer to our colleagues over DoD. I don't know that there is necessarily uniformity within the different branches on the documentation that a service member necessarily gets, that could be an issue. But again I think you know we should probably approach it from the point of view that if everything looks in line, we have the orders, we have the proof of the marriage and so forth, try to be, try to be as least bureaucratic on these folks as we can. But if there is any doubt, if we are not sure, if maybe the orders weren't as specific or there is some doubt, we can always verify it or maybe request of a copy of a DD 214, if need be. [Inaudible] Until or after, yeah okay. Good point. [Inaudible] Okay, okay so just, just for the benefit of everyone the DD 214 is issued at the, when they are released or discharged, but there is a Statement of Service that accompanies the PCS order again the gentlemen makes the point about accountability. Again if that's helpful to have also that request that the Department of Defense is very good in helping these families in providing them with their documentation and so forth so that they have what they need and if that, if there is some doubt and that's what required then so be it. Question. This program is very similar to Veterans Preference other than with PCS portion of it, the other two options fall under, directly under Veterans Preference. How is this truly differing from that and then two, how is the military or DoD handling, getting this kind of information out to spouses, now that it is a brand new program and this is something that they are going to need to know about when they go into apply for a position, because when they go into apply they need to make some sort of notification that they fall under this kind of preference. Right, excellent question. First of all, just so we' all understand this is not a preference. This is not a hiring preference. All of this is a non-competitive eligibility so what we mean by it's not a preference is and when we think veteran's preference right we have veterans get five or ten points or they go to the top of a category for using category rating. That doesn't happen here. All this allows an agency to do, allows you guys to do is consider these individuals along with your other non-competitive applicants. So it's not a preference. Just so everybody understands that because it is a bit a technical distinction, this is not a hiring preference. Also military spouses, they don't have a selection priority. There is no, well I can't pass them over to get it, none of that. Again they are just, they just go on the list. If they are eligible and if they are qualified for the job they can go on the list and being considered along with your other non-competitive applicants. So hold that thought just a moment, let me get to the second part of your question. So very good question, because that's a very important distinction in this. I don't know if you guys have been looking at the blogs and the articles and what not a lot of the press has called it a hiring preference. Sometimes we use a lot of terminology and jargon in the layman's terms may be that's construed of you that way, but in our world I want to be very clear it is not a hiring preference, it is not a selection priority, okay. Just so we all understand that. But the second part of your question had to do with what are we doing to get the word out to the actual spouses; several things actually. DoD is I know is meeting with difference stakeholder groups different family advocacy groups and Transition Placement Centers and those venues to try to get the word out. OPM is also we are putting together a bit of a campaign to deal with veterans' appointment in a more general sense and certainly one thing that we are going to be doing for military spouses as well as preference eligibles and other veterans is to make them better aware of what their eligibilities are, what their entitlements are you, how they can find Federal jobs, how they can navigate USAJobs. Put them in touch with agencies, for disabled veterans' agency placement coordinators and you know those kinds of things. So we are moving out on a rather broad front. OPM and DoD and we overlap and we intersect and we look forward to partnering with DoD to help roll this thing out too. This was the first session that we are having like this and we wanted to invite the agency folks in, but we recognize and I think you make an excellent point, we also need to talk to the actual people who can use this thing. They need to understand it too and we are going to doing more of that as we roll this thing out in the next few weeks. I'm looking at my colleague, I need a hand set in the back of I'm going to embarrass you and pick on you, but anything we want to say about the veterans role out in a broader context or that pretty much. [Inaudible] Yeah. [Inaudible] Okay. Yes, yeah I can't tell you that. It's a issue that Director Barry is, it's extremely important issue to director Barry, the whole notion of veterans' employment. So we're as Anita alluded to we are in the planning stages but we are moving out on that front, in a broader context in this, but we're going to be in a context of mil spouse we are going to be working with DoD and doing some things. They actually get at the actual job seekers. You are absolutely right they need to know about it too, you know they need to know about it too. [Inaudible] a 100% disabled veterans and/or spouse of a deceased veteran on active duty does follow the veterans preference with regards to XP they receive a 10 point. Right. So I mean that's why I was like this is similar to that with those two particular out of the three that you are outlining. Yeah and that's a very good observation, they are, for those two criteria military spouses not only will they be a preference eligible and have their five or ten points but they are eligible under this authority as well. So that's an additional way in which agencies can pick them up. Now if agency considers people on the regular or delegated examining, the competitive examining list then obviously even though someone might be eligible under the mil spouse if they are being considered under that list then they get their five or their 10 points and preference does apply. The context which I'm speaking in is a separate list, it's just the non-competitive list and that's why I want to be clear. On the non-competitive list preference doesn't apply. We don't apply preference if we reinstate people, or if we transfer people or reassign people already in the system. So in that context there is no preference and there is no selection priority or pass overs or any of that. But the gentleman makes a very good point that some of these people are also going to be preference eligibles by virtue of the disposition of the service member whether it be a 100% disability or hopefully not but in some instances the death of the service member as well, I have a question Mike. Yes. So the criteria is for example, I am a widow of a 100% disabled veteran, would I be eligible for this even though he died prior to the enactment of this new provision? Right. I don't have records of relocation requests, alright, the condition now is that, the condition has to be, a relocation order has been processed and I would also have to be a widow. Okay, good questions Lucy. Just again just so everybody is clear. There are three criteria, it's relocation PCS orders that's one, 100% disability to the service member that's... or the death of the service member. An eligible spouse doesn't have to meet all three, the spouse only has to meet one of those three. So to take the tail end of your question first, so we all understand, don't need all three of those one of those three. Now I think your initial part of your question was what happens if your military spouse but unfortunately the service member was disabled or died long, long ago. Again it's a two-year eligibility from the date of the documentation certifying either the PCS move the date of documentation certifying the 100% disability or the date of the documentation certifying the death of the service member. So it's a two-year window, so if that happened during Vietnam war, no if it happened 11 months ago, yes, assuming other criteria on that, a good question. I have a couple of questions from the field, we appreciate that. One is, will a website be created. Yeah, we're going to have information, we are going to have our regulations, the executive order, we'll have a copy of the handouts. We'll have I think this presentation. We will go on our website. As I alluded to we are taking a broader look at veterans' employment. It's something that Director Barry is extremely interested in and supportive of and I think this military spouse information I think in all likelihood is going to end up on that, but yeah there will be a website created. There will be veterans' portal and it will contain all information including this that might impact veterans' or military spouses as well. So I think we can look forward for it. It definitely going to be on the website and in all likelihood that's where it's going to be. We have another question, can a spouse look for a job prior to the PCS move, yeah certainly, you know certainly. Again all we need is the order, all we need is a copy of the order. They can look for jobs they can apply for jobs, you know so absolutely. Proof of eligibility; we've covered some of this already again the third point we have, we need proof that they are married. I have to know that you are, someone is the actual spouse and then proof that the member was released or discharged because of a service connected disability and it says we've discussed the Department of Defense or the armed -- the branches of the Armed Forces may issue those letters or the Department of Veterans Affairs may issues those orders. I think in my experience VA commonly issues those, but it could be either or. So for proof of disability there, not to many surprises or nuances. And then also for proof of the eligibility based on the death of the service member, again, we need to know that they were married and we need some proof that the member died while on active duty. I presume that would probably be the DD 214 at that point if not other documentation that a military spouse might also receive in any of those pieces of documentation would be sufficient. It's so good to have navy and DoD folks in the audience. Lucy, I think this gets out your question and question we had about the PCS, but time frames, again how long does, what's the eligibility here? Two years from the date of the orders, the date of the documentation, the service members who are 100% disabled, two years from the documentation of the service member who is killed while on active duty. Now also with respect to the PCS or the relocation move, it's, a spouse can use this one time per PCS move. Again the intent was to try to help out these families that have been disrupted because of a military move. So if someone used it to get a job and they are in the Federal Agency, well there you go, they've used their eligibility. Now if the military spouse gets another PCS move, in the example that we talked about a little earlier, someone PCS is from the Pentagon to Wright-Patterson Air Force base to another air force base say in Arizona, upon the new PCS orders provided that they specify the dependent travel on that, the spouse could use it when they get, he or she gets to Arizona, but if a spouse PCS is to DC and they get a job at the OPM and then they say, well, I think I want to apply across street and I'll just use this and yeah maybe a little while after that, no, it's one per PCS move, but if there are new orders cut, then that's it, it starts anew. So just, so everybody is clear; two years from the date of the documentation which establishes the spouse's eligibility, but with... in the case of the PCS it's one for PCS move. Some other conditions, military spouses have to apply for federal jobs the same as other individuals looking for employment in the competitive service, what does that mean? That means they have to apply to a job announcement, they have to apply to job announcement. They just have to have a vacancy. So, they put announcement on and they can apply they can ask for consideration under this authority. Again if they're five or ten point because of a disability or a death, hey that's, that's two ways they can considered. They can considered, they get the five or ten points if the agency is just working off a delegated examining list or I call a competitive examining list or they can just pick them off the non competitive list. So that's an additional bite at the apple, if you will, that military spouse may have. I think I've talked about this at the start. They have to be qualified for the job. Merit principle say we all to be qualified for the jobs that we do. Again, this is not an entitlement to a job, it's not a preference, again they are treated the same way as other folks, you have to meet quals because this is in the competitive service, you have to, these military spouses have to meet government wide quals, the jobs, the quals for all the jobs are listed in the qualification handbook. It's available on the OPM website, but they're subject to the same qualifications as any other job seeker would be for that competitive service job. Again, because it's in the competitive service sometimes we have temporary or term jobs in the competitive service. It can be permanent, temp, interim, it depends on the job the agencies filling. Now some of you maybe saying okay what happens if they are hired under term job after four years can we non-competitively convert them, no. Can we non-competitively convert other term employees, no. There is no legal authority to do that. If they are hired into a temporary job, can we non-competitively converted them, no because we don't have that same flexibility for other temporary employees as well. So again treated the same as other people, hired in the same way. We've been asked, are there jobs set aside specifically for military spouse, do agencies have to do that or is there a funding that is specifically set aside, no. We don't set aside jobs for other classes of individuals. Again it's just one way to consider folks, one way to consider folks. Yes, let's go to the lady's question. Hi Mike can you hear me? Yes. My question is, like I say, I have two parts on it. Is there going to be a separate legal authority used for this and what I am thinking of is down the road, are we going to be asked to report how many spouses we've hired under this authority? Very good question is there a separate legal authority for this. Yes, there is. We're going to... a couple of thoughts on that, I'll give those, I'll give those to you, but just an idea of what's coming. Again the questions and answers, the supplemental guidance that we're going to be issuing and issuing on the website we had question about that, we'll have a Q&A on what those authorities are. The guy Jackie, by the way I don't think I've introduced Jackie, I'm sorry. Jackie Carrington, my colleague on this regulation, Jackie is kind enough to work the counsel for us today. The guy, the processing personal actions has been updated and is live now I think on the OPM web, not yet, okay. It's coming, matter of days, and that will contain the information in and on legal authority, codes of nature of action codes and all that. So we'll leave to that on our Q&A, but let's say I can give you these if you want for, permanent jobs if the spouse is on the agency's rolls, the nature of action code is 101 and the authority code is LAM and the authority is 5CFR, Part 315, Section 612, which is where you'll find these codified in regulations. If the spouse is already on the agency's rolls, the nature of action code is 501, the authority code is LAM and the authority code is again 5CFR-315.612, 612. For term appointments, the nature of action code is, if they're are not on the rolls, it's 108 and the authority code is LDM, D as in David, and the authority there would be because it's a term it will be 5CFR316.302B3MS and again this will all be in our Qs&As and in our guidance and if it's a term employee who is already on the agency's rolls, the only difference would be, the nature of action code is 508 and then for temps it's, if they're on the agency's rolls it's, the nature of action code is, if they are not the agencies rolls, it's the nature of action code is 115 and legal authority code is LCM and the reference is the authority reference is 5CFR316.402B3MS and if they are already on the rolls, it's the same information the nature of action code is 515. So if you all want to write that down now you are welcome to it, but we'll make sure that's available because it's... there is a lot a rules, you know, what did he say, B what, you know, so that will be forthcoming and that will be in our Qs&As as well and in the handbook or the guide rather. Okay, good question. -Mike. -Yes. I have a question. I know you have facility I know you mentioned... I can see it, puts the lights in my eyes. You mentioned one time per PCS move and is that just for the 101 and 501 and can for the temp and term they have multiples? No, the one per PCS move is one per PCS move. It doesn't matter what type of appointment the individual gets. Again, the idea was somebody might have had to quit a job to move across the country and relocate, they need a job, if they get employment even if it's a term or a term employment for four years, we help them get a job, if they get a permanent job and you know, permanent job. So the one per it doesn't matter whether it's a temp term or permanently, it's simply one per. And again if the service member receives a new set of PCS orders, then it's another one per of that set and another one per that set for as long as the individual may have a military career. I think we've, yes, if you could hold on just a moment while Amber brings the mic back to you, thank you. I have question about vacancy announcements. It's not a used standard language for vacancy announcement. I know a OPM has just recently developing standard language for vacancy announcements for their critical positions. Is this information going to be available to us or will each agency have to develop their own language for vacancy announcement? Your question has to do with will a vacancy announcement have language or will vacancy have an opportunity to have language to put in specific to military spouses. Yeah to this. Yeah, that's a good question and I'll be honest I don't have an answer for you off the top of my head. I need to double check with Angie and some folks about how we're going to handle that. I simply don't know, at this point, I don't know. I don't want to mislead anybody. We'll check and we'll give an answer back out to the group as to how that's going to how that's going to play out. I mean, obviously again we want to, the gentleman asked we want to try to publicize this to as military spouses as possible, how we do that mechanically I guess I just have to talk to some folks, but we'll address and get an answer back to you all. Any other questions coming in over the Internet Jackie at this point, okay we put them all to sleep. I put them all to sleep. I think we had, Ellen I don't I think it was your question, it was the lady here had also asked about reporting requirements on this, and that was in the conjunction of the authority codes. Yeah, I think, I would, my advise would be yes you're probably going to be asked to what extent are you using this hiring authority. I know I can almost guarantee you because of the visibility and the importance of it. OPM is going to be asked and we're going to need to look at the data and find out. So how we do that whether we just go into the central personal data system and pull it or whether we talking to you folks, I know everybody is going to be interested in it, we're going to be interested it. We need to gauge the effectiveness of this thing. Maybe our outreach, maybe we need to do more, better, different kind of outreach. I think DoD also, it's going to keep a very close eye on how this thing plays out. So I think the answer to your question is almost definitely going to be absolutely how we get at that. Maybe we can just go in and pull it, I don't know, but yeah I would be prepared to have the question coming your way at some future point in time. And that's typical of new hiring authorities that we've issued, you know particularly something of this nature because our country is fighting two wars right now and a lot of men and women are activated these days, so it's very timely, and it's very topical and until the economy fully turns around, again it always a disruption when somebody has to pick up and leave, it maybe even a bigger disruption in a bad economy. Somebody maybe going to a relatively small town or city where there are not a lot of jobs and they really need this thing. So we're going to be keeping a close eye on it. Again, just keeping with our theme that military spouses have to apply and the same rules apply to them as everybody else that includes things like suitability, citizenship requirements, things like that, those things aren't waived because of this. So the same kinds of traps and checks that we would run on any employee, they apply to these individuals as well, Again it's not, I don't want to sound like being too much of a dead horse, but it's very important that we all understand, it's not a hiring preference, there is no selection priority, there is no pass over rules, none of that sort of thing. They treated as same as any other job secret, applying and coming into the competitive service. But on the positive side there is no great level limitations on this. With our some of... our one of our veterans hiring authorities, the Veterans Recruitment Act Authority that's capped at 11. This isn't capped at anything. If somebody is qualified to do a job and they are eligible you can appoint them. It's not... this isn't for entry level jobs, this isn't for any range, it's just if someone is eligible and qualified you can appoint them. So that's an important flexibility for agencies to have. It's not mandatory either. It's completely discretionary as is any other non-competitive hiring authority. You're not required to use it, although as we just said we're going to be very interested in the level of the use, but agencies don't have to use it anymore than you have to reinstate a former federal employee. It's an option for you, and again we certainly encourage agencies to use it. We want to help you use it and once you do use it, make better use of it and we certainly want to help the military spouses understand and use it, but it's not a mandatory thing. It's completely discretionary as any of the hiring authorities, that are in the books now. Just some references, again that's the executive order. The CFR that's where you will find it, in the regulations. We talked about the guy the processing personnel actions we are going to be issuing Qs&As and at some point I expect this to migrate to our new veterans page or portal once that gets stood up. Jackie Carrington drafted the reg and that's her email address and you see mine if anybody has any follow up questions or again would like us to come out to your agency and talk about it, we'll be happy to do that. If there is any technical issues, we will be happy to do that as well. I think that covers the most of, we booked this thing for two hours. I don't know that, we've used about an hour. We wanted to make, we wanted be on the side of the maximum accessibility with you guys. I'll stand here for the rest of the afternoon if need be if there is any additional questions or clarifications that are needed. I think that those are the big points. It's not affective until September 11, by the way I don't know if I mentioned that at the top, but when we issues regs there is always a 30-day, affective date to give agencies an opportunity to get their heads around it a little bit and gear up and prepare. We're putting as I mentioned finishing touches on the Qs&As and guide to process and personnel actions. So come September 11 and that's a pretty easy day to remember, that's when these regs become affective. So until then, again that's one of the reasons we wanted to bring you in here and really get, engage you folks so that we can help people get ready. So come the 11, everybody is ready to hit the ground and running. Any other questions, anything from the Internet Jackie, no? Yes. The intent of this non-competitive appointment is great. The way it sound, it's going to be laid out. My only question or concern with the two-year. I mean sometimes you have military spouses who have been here at transition with their spouses and they are still unable to find employment. So that restriction of that two-year is like okay the purpose are behind it, and then when you just reference September 11, it may seem like a well, maybe it should be from September 11, 2001, where they wouldn't, there shouldn't be a period for it, because I'm looking at the full intent without the restrictions. Well, yeah, I think that's going to be one of those things where we're going to have to just gauge how this thing plays out frankly and if we encounter situations where maybe a whole lot of people really, really need this thing, but they missed the two-year thing, then maybe that informs us for our regulatory change, but at that some time we needed some way of managing this I think a little bit and again we chose the two years. We thought that was a reasonable time frame for someone who is affected whether it be by relocation or whatever to find another job within a two-year period. So I hear your point. Again, right now the two-years is what it is, but like any other aspect of this reg or anything else, we all can see how it plays out. And if we find that it really is a detriment to the very people we're trying to help then we'll take appropriate action and try to mend that or rectify that, but I think right now we need to see how this one is going to work and see how it goes from there. Hold on, Lucy, the microphone is coming, thanks. If you are an employer with a lot of jobs to offer, how do you get connected with work life, family, support groups in DoD to ask them perhaps to gather more, the interested parties that could come and learn about the opportunities? Good question; how do you partner with them? Well, one I think we're going to, we will help, OPM will help agencies do that. I think DoD would be amenable also to stepping out and helping that happen. Again, we want to partner with DoD and we want to continue to work with the agencies as we roll this thing out. I mentioned this is not a one and done thing today by any means. So as part of the broader roll out of this regulation as we move trough it I think some of those things will fall in place a little bit and once the word gets out and it starts to build some momentum, again we can sort of informally rely on a community of practice. If we find out that one agency is doing it well and has best practices to share, we'll bring them in, we'll bring them in here in the auditorium or some venue and hear from them and what's working and what isn't, and who do they talk to and make sure everybody has that information. So that's something that we'll be working through as we roll this thing out and again we're partnering with DoD very closely on some of these very issues. We had the question about how do we get the word out to the spouses, again, we are already engaged in discussions about that and they're doing things on their front because that's kind of what they do, maybe this is one more piece of it, where get it out to the transition assistance people. Wwe're going to be, you know, doing things, we're going to be doing things together. I think that's going to, that will be one of the many things that we tackle as we move through this. Anyone else? Okay the question was are we going to update the VetGuide to have information on the military spouse? We're going to have information on the military spouse, rest assured. It's going to get a lot of exposure. There is no question or doubt about that. Whether it goes into the VetGuide, whether it it's own thing, whether it's in both places I think it's a little premature at this point, but like I said folks, spouses as well as agency folks will not be lacking for information on this and again it will be one of these watch this space kind of things, but good question. Again I think right now we're just in the process of working through the details of where is, specifically where is it, where are we going to hire and those kinds of things and I don't think those have been fully flushed out, but believe me it will be out there whether it's in VetGuide, some other place both with links, USAJobs certainly needs to be involved in this. It will be in a lot of different places, a lot of different places. Okay, let's see it is, I think the first part of that question was does indication of a spouse on PCS orders guarantee will the spouse has to move, no it doesn't and that's, again we covered that earlier. The spouse must relocate in order to be eligible because if the spouse doesn't relocate the presumption is there really wasn't that much of a disruption, if the spouse didn't have to quit his or her job, didn't have to sell the house and all that. The spouse isn't looking for a job and maybe a small market or a depressed area where jobs are hard to come by, then they're not as impacted as the folks that we're trying to get at so the answer to that question would be no. The PCS whereas don't guarantee the spouse has to move. To be eligible the spouse does indeed have to move. Anything else from the field? I'll answer it this way. The reference to agency discretion was in whether they are required to use this authority or not. Again, it is like any other hiring authority. It's a tool, it's a means to bring people on board. We certainly encourage agencies to use this. Do they have to use it? No, you don't anymore then you have to reinstate people or you have to hire students or hire people under any other authority. They're at your disposal. Most agencies make very news of the various hiring authorities to get the people they need on board. So again, a good question but the reference to it, it's not mandatory was in a broader in sense whether agencies are forced to use it. I mentioned earlier there are no positions set aside, there is no money set aside, there are no specific FTE set aside. Again, if an agency is filling a job, you can consider these folks under this authority along with your other noncompetitive hires, along with your other noncompetitive hires so that's what this is, that's what it does, that's what it, how, what it means to the agencies, to you folks in the agencies. Amber we have another question over there? Yeah, just to clarify that the question right before the last one. So it sounds like somebody who receives the PCS orders, but hasn't yet moved, would be eligible to be considered, could be put on a candidate list and actually selected, but couldn't be appointed until they actually relocate it, is that correct? I would say that's yeah I mean they can certainly look for a job and apply for a job and again we don't want to, we want to air on the side of helping military families and again there maybe some exigencies, if you will, where they haven't actually, you they haven't finished selling their house yet or their dependence, maybe parents or in-laws or whatever have you, they need to make sure those loose ends are tied up. They can always be looking at a job, looking for a jobs apply, be considered, they do have to relocate in order to be appointed. We need some proof that they have relocated at that point because again the... the reason why is we don't want a situation whereas someone is just hasn't really been disrupted at all and this being put and they're thinking, oh this is just as an easy way to come into the government, that's... it's not aimed at those folks. It's aimed at the people that have actually been disrupted by the relocation. This is, just kind of piggyback on what you just said, the two-year time span is that going to be based on the date of the orders because most military orders are anywhere from six months to eight months out when you get the orders, you can start planning ahead doing things of that nature or is it going to effective the date of, reporting to the, your officially new duty station. That's another excellent question. It's the date of the orders for the people who are affected by relocation, it's the date of the orders. For people who are, the spouses that might be eligible under the 100% disability, it's the date of the documentation certifying the disability, service connected disability. For people who... spouses who are eligible because of the death of a service member, it's the date of the documentation, a testament to the death of the service member. So I think date of the documentation and again, we figured two years was a pretty sufficient time frame obviously disability and depth takes to measurable toll on people in lives but we figured two years was a good time frame to do that. We have discussions with our partners over DoD about that and that's what we settled on. So it's two years from the date of the documentation. Elvig got another one. No, just following up on somebody else's question, maybe it was the one that came in over the web, I'm not sure who asked it about agency discretion because the regs do indicate that the agency head can give you an exception to the geographic area being only commuting area if there are no jobs in the, no Federal jobs in the spouses commuting area. Right, yes. The regs do indeed do that, Elvig, good point. And again if there is no, if there is really no employment opportunities where the military bases at all for a civilian, but the nearest one is maybe 100 miles away and maybe we wouldn't initially think, well that's a reasonable commuting distance, but again the intent here is to try to help these military spouses to the extent that we can. Now if they're relocating to an area like DC, where there is agencies all over the place within a relatively confined area, then we wouldn't need to exercise that, but if it's out in the hinterlands or some place where the nearest Federal agency is maybe, I don't know, for sake of example 100 miles or an hour away by car from you know where the service member has been relocated, then in that sense it would be reasonable and we can actually help somebody. So the agencies have the discretion on that. We're not going to prescribe that. What is a reasonable man standard here? Anything else Jackie, coming in? Okay, the question was what are the spouses of service members who are on hardship tours or unaccompanied tours, are they eligible and if not how can they use this authority. Again, there are three criteria for how a spouse can use this authority. It's the PCS and they have to be indicated on the order. So if they are not indicated on the orders then they're not eligible. The only other considerations would be if the service member incurred a 100% service connected disability while on active duty or lost his or her life while on active duty. So this is not going to apply to all the military spouses. So an example that we gave, I think the answer is it wouldn't apply for those folks. If someone has just called up and sent to Afghanistan, again as we said spouses typically don't go in to combat zones or accompanied, so they wouldn't be eligible. Conversely when people come back, when they are released or discharged from active duty or they retire, they may have orders relocating back to the United States or wherever their home is or the DoD would have you, but that's again, that's an unaccompanied tour. So it's not any order. It's not any relocation or it's not every military spouse, it's the three specific criteria. Yes, we'll see. My question goes back to the eligibility limited to the geographic area indicated on the person's PCS orders. And you're saying you're going to leave it up to the agencies to determine what is a reasonable daily commuting distance. Will they need to specify what they consider reasonable in the announcement or will they just make that decision based upon the applicants who apply and where they live? Yeah I'm thinking more of the latter. Again I don't... to the extent that we put things in the vacancy announcement, we had the question about the standardized announcements. So I need to research that a little bit and get back to the group. Many of these agencies already have these things spelled out, you know for example in your, again in your competitive area for reduction in force purposes, it's already stated, in most cases I would think it's going to be one and the same. But I wouldn't think it necessarily would be someone... let me put it this way, I think the fallout would be maybe someone is going to apply and somebody is thinking, well wait a minute, you know, they live in Baltimore for a sake of example, but you know we're an hour away, well you know, that's when you know, when we get to it as a case by case. But again if we know we're the only employer for hundreds of miles, then you know that pretty much answers the questions. If we're one of a lot of employers and there a lot of employers between here and the nearest military base and someone is coming from way, way far away, then you know that may not make the reasonable standards, you know it would bake the questions why doesn't the person apply if there is agencies in and around where they work. So it's really to get in situations where, again someone has been relocated to the Hinterlands and there is really no, there is no employers where the family is living, the nearest one might be two hours away. If that's the only opportunity then we want to help them and we want o use this thing. Does that help Melissa? Okay. Okay, the question was, is this applied overtime and separation when relocating the home of record. I think we just covered that, no because those are unaccompanied tours. I mean just because someone is coming out of the military that's not necessarily a hardship. Now if someone is coming out of the military with a 100% service connected disability, then the spouse would be eligible under that criteria, but they wouldn't necessarily be eligible just from the basis of the fact that somebody is transitioning back from active duty. Okay. Anything else, one more? Okay, good question. Can we clarify whether eligible spouses have to apply to vacancy announcement for this flexibility? They have to apply to a vacancy announcement. They're treated the same way as any other job seeker, if they want to apply for a permanent job, permanent jobs are advertised on USAJOBS. If I want to apply for a permanent job I have to go on USAJOBS and apply. If someone who is a non-Federal employee wants, you know yes you have to apply and that's you know because again just from the technical side the rationale is because the law says that we have to advertise jobs filled in the competitive service. These are jobs in the competitive service. It's a non-competitive entry, but the job is in the competitive service, so the public notice requirements apply. So the answer to the question is yes, they would have to apply to a vacancy announcement, same as other job seekers. Good questions. Anything else? Okay, just so we're all squared. The question was can a military spouse use this more than once during a PCS move, the answer is no. It's one per PCS move. However, if the service member receives a new set of PCS orders and their family relocates to different geographic location, then the spouse would have one more chance per that PCS move, okay. Good, we have another one? Pardon? Legitimate questions. We have the question that asks whether this applies to same sex marriage partners. I think, you know if people are married they would be eligible I think is my take on it. You know, again the Executive Order and the law says spouses. If someone is a legal spouse then they're the legal spouse. That's, you know, that's how I see it. That's a very, I'm glad to see people are reading these things and asking these questions but again this applies to military spouses. So if someone is the legal spouse of someone, you know I would think that then would be eligible provided that they meet, fall under one of the three criteria and/or they're otherwise eligible for Federal employment. We talked of earlier about suitability and you know citizenship and issues like that. Okay the comment was from the navy, was they have to be careful because this goes into don't ask don't tell, that's a good point, but let's face it, there may be individuals who are eligible under the 100% disability or the death of the service member also. So we need to think about the totality of who might be eligible under this. Okay? Another question we had, how soon will the presentation be available? As soon as we can get it available to you I'm not the tech person, I don't know, but, again we're going to put this up on the OPM website and get it out to you as quickly as we can, so everyone has benefit of playing it, reviewing it, and listening to it and so forth. I don't have a specific date or when it's going to be posted or available. We'll work with John there in the back and his folks and the folks that make these things that I can't comprehend all this stuff, it's out on the web, we will make it happen. We'll get it out to you as soon as we can. Okay, the question was, it has to do with 100% disability. What if the spouse was initially rated to have a 100% disability rating say 1980, but has been more recently certified to have the same rating. I need to look, I'll be honest guys, I need to look into it, again we want to air on the site of helping the military spouses. I'm inclined to say if they have newer updated official documentation from the Department of Veterans Affairs or a branch of the Armed Services, then we go with the later one, but before I can say that definitely I need to kick it around and maybe we'll address that in our Qs&As and get the word out. You know, there is going to be a lot of issues that come up, that just come up on a case specific thing and again I allude to we are going to have to just sort of use an informal communities of practice approach about this and can see, what kind of questions come up, what, you know, how are agencies dealing with it? You know what can we do from a policy side to, you know, if we hear enough of these things again maybe it informs us to make a policy change and our guidance or rates what have you, we just need to see how it works, how it plays out, that's an excellent question. I'll be honest, I don't have a sure answer for you guys right now, but we will research it and we'll reflect that in our guidance, anything else, okay, yes ma'am. Hi Mike, one more question going back to the same sex partner issue, that's going to be major for us in that, if we're relying on PCS orders and the DT 240 or the other documents that we mentioned earlier, those come out of DOD. So if they're not recognizing same sex partner union, then how are we, that's going to put us in a dilemma. How are we are going to be able to make a policy statement on that, if that comes out, if DOD hasn't recognized it? Yeah, that's obviously a very tricky, a very sensitive kind of issue, hold that thought Jackie. In fact Amber wants to bring the microphone down too. I think the impact there is going to be more on the relocation, the PCS than on the disability or the death criteria, again regulatorily, you know, you have to be the spouse, you know, you have to be married to the person, that's in the executive order and regulatorily, again you have to be indicated on the PCS move and that could that's where it's going to be problematic obviously. Yeah, we were going to have to have some discussions with the Department of Defense about that, but I think, you know, again if you get documentation or you give key applicants and they are not indicated on those things, I think initially that's where we have to go with, but we'll look into that with our partners over at DOD and we need to see the best way of addressing the issue. Jackie do want to... Jackie do me a favor use the microphone just for the benefit of everybody. Of course I don't know if the people online can hear you without it, we are giving Amber her workout today. Now all I was going to say is the spouses name is normally on the PCS order and that's how you have to go by right now. So anything else other than that you can only work with what you have, okay. If a spouse is unemployed at a current duty station and a PCS with their husband or wife to new duty station, are they eligible for this? Yeah, again the spouse need not have quit a job, you know, obviously these times with unemployment being as high as it is, you know, our aim here is to help folks and we're not going to be saying, "Well, if you haven't a job no," I mean it's people that don't have a job that they need one sooner than perhaps some other. So to answer your question that's, you know, you don't have to quit a job or lost a job, I use that as an example to sort of explain the intent of this thing, but no I mean again if someone, if someone has to pick up and relocate even if they didn't have a job, well, you know, again the job prospects in the new location maybe very, very limited, slim and none you know, other than say a Federal Employer. So, you know, all the more reason why a military spouse might actually need to use this thing. So they don't have to have quit a job or had one or anything like that, it's just they are otherwise eligible, you know, in the relocation, they're indicated on the orders, they move, you know, they're citizens, they need suitably all the stuff you know we can go ahead and appoint them. Good questions, God you guys were a good group, anyone else. Jack anything on the Internet, no, going twice, going three times, well, thank you very much just as you make your way out again I want to thank Jackie for machine and our college band and John. Certainly John and his folks in the back and Amber for doing all that and Brenda for doing the late work, my job is easy, I just could just stand up here and talk, these guys make it all happen, but again seriously, you know, we want to be as available and accessible to you guys as possible. So if you need us to come out onsite, if you like another session, if some of this wasn't clear, you know, by all mean contact us, me directly or Jackie directly, or your Human Capital contact for your agency. I think this is the start of this thing not just as okay we went to OPM we heard him and that's it. We intend to do a lot more with the actual spouses and some of the other stakeholder groups, we certainly want to include the agencies as well. Again it all happens on September 11th and we'll be giving out much more guidance between and so if anything comes up in between please contact us. This is very important and we are very excited about it. So thank you all for coming on a hot August afternoon.