Helen Wan, - The partner track - Talks at google

SUNNI YUEN: Hello, I'm Sunni Yuen. I'm a member of Google's legal department here. And today we are hosting Helen Wan, associate general counsel from Time Inc. And Helen is here to talk about her new book called "The Partner Track." So Helen, if you could give us a quick summary of your book is about. HELEN WAN: Sure. So "The Partner Track" is a novel. It's decidedly fiction. It follows the journey of a young Chinese American woman who is climbing the corporate ladder in corporate America. It's set at a large law firm and it basically talks about the ways in which being an outsider, in all the things that word might mean, can impact the journey of talented young person on their way up the corporate ladder. SUNNI YUEN: So are law firm corporate ladders different than corporate corporate ladders? You've worked at both, a law firm and also obviously at Time Inc? HELEN WAN: Right. So I'm associate general counsel at the Time Inc. division of Time Warner. And so having worked now both as an in-house lawyer and also as a law firm attorney, I do think the two are quite culturally different. Just like any corporate culture is different. Like, for example, you guys at Google, you must know within the corporate community Google is sort of like the Disneyland of the corporate world. The happiest place on earth, you know. And I come here and I see people are on scooters. So obviously every corporate culture is unique. And I think one of the messages of my book, what I was hoping to convey, is that it's so important to land there and right away learn, figure out the corporate culture, and then identify your own place within it in a way that can feel authentic and comfortable to yourself. SUNNI YUEN: And this is something your protagonist-- her name is Ingrid Yung, and she's been described variously throughout the book as brainy but beautiful, or beautiful but brainy. HELEN WAN: Described by some reviewers. SUNNI YUEN: By reviewers or other characters in your book. She's also been described as a sour-faced fraulein, based on her name alone. HELEN WAN: Yes, by clients in the book. SUNNI YUEN: How much of yourself is in this protagonist? HELEN WAN: I always get asked this question. One of the first questions I get asked at book events is how much of the book is autobiographical. And the answer to that is I am an Asian American female lawyer. My first job fresh out of law school, as a 25-year-old out of law school was indeed as an M&A associate at a large corporate law firm. The firm where I happened to work was Paul Weiss. But that's sort of where the similarities in terms of what happens to her career-wise stop because unlike my protagonist, I did not stay at the law firm. I actually left after just under two years to go to an entertainment law firm. And then from there I lateraled in-house to Time Warner. So my own career path is quite different than Ingrid's, but I tried very hard to do the research necessary to make that big law culture as realistic as possible. SUNNI YUEN: And for those of you who might not have had a chance to read Helen's book yet, Ingrid Yung is the protagonist. She has quite a resume that I think we at Google would be very impressed with. Played varsity soccer three semesters at Yale, valedictorian, voted most likely to succeed, Phi Beta Kappa, Law Review. And she is certainly someone who's not afraid to confront anyone who challenges or raises stereotypes about herself. Would you say that's something that you feel very personal about, the ability to confront stereotyping? HELEN WAN: I do. And one thing that I tried to show in the book is how when a person in works in corporate America they often, I think, have one-- it's like a split personality a bit. The person you are at work, or feel that you need to be at work, and the person that you are outside of work. And there's one scene, I think one that you might be alluding to, where Ingrid reacts to a challenging offensive situation in a way that she absolutely does not allow herself when she is in the kind of public eye at work. SUNNI YUEN: Work life balance, literally, right? And it's severed right here. HELEN WAN: Exactly. SUNNI YUEN: Could you share something from your book just so we could get to know Ingrid a little? HELEN WAN: Sure. So we were discussing it might be a nice way to, before we launch into our conversation-- I do hope it'll be an interactive conversation-- that we could frame it by my just reading a couple of quick snippets from the book. So actually let me just start by asking how many people here in the audience have ever attended a company outing, like a firm's summer outing? OK, it's practically everyone. And I suspect that a Google summer outing might look quite different than a corporate law firm summer outing, obviously. SUNNI YUEN: White shoe law firm. HELEN WAN: Yeah, within a white shoe law firm. But all you need to know to place this scene is that it takes place at the summer outing of the fictitious law firm of Parsons, Valentine, and Hunt. And it's taking place at the Oak Hollow Country Club in Westchester. The scene by the pool was in full swing by the time I got down there. No one was swimming, but a line had already formed at the bar. Coolers packed with ice, Perrier, Gatorade, and bottled beer were positioned at convenient intervals across the spotless pool deck. I did what I always did. Got a club soda with a wedge of lime and then stretched out on a green and white striped lounge chair. Crossing my ankles demurely, pasting a smile onto my face, and trying to look like I was having a fantastic time. The sun reflected off the glittering surface of the pool like tiny gemstones. It felt good on my face and shoulders and I leaned back and closed my eyes, relaxing a little. Before long I heard two loud splashes and some high-pitched giggles. I opened my eyes. It was the same group of chatty summer associates I had seen on the bus. Two of the guys had already cannonballed into the deep end of the pool while a third, Steinberg, was making a beeline for the open bar. I put my sunglasses back on so I could watch a little more carefully. I was curious and more than a little nostalgic. There had been 95 of us in my entering class when we'd first started out, and over a third of us had been women. But now, eight years later, in corporate it was just me, Murph, Hunter, and Tyler left standing. I was still friends with a lot of the women who had left the firm over the years, and I knew that they all rooted for me. Every Christmas I received an enthusiastic chorus of messages. Keep up the good fight. Looking forward to toasting the firm's first female corporate partner. These messages typically came scrawled on the back of a holiday photo card featuring some impossibly cute two-year-old in a reindeer costume. As I watched this latest crop of summer associates shrieking and splashing each other in the pool, I thought about how much I missed that easy camaraderie. That freedom you felt when you were nowhere near up for partner. The blissful safety in numbers. It was so much harder to blend in when there was only one of you. The one called Steinberg was back now with a large tropical drink served in a hollowed out pineapple. Hey, he yelled to one of the girls. Why aren't you in the pool yet? This particular girl-- the prettiest girl in the group-- was a tall willowy blonde with high cheekbones, fair skin, and a faint spray of freckles across the bridge of her nose. Her hair was swept back into an unfussy French twist and secured with a single, tiny, tortoiseshell pin. She was wearing a chic black cover up and the white spaghetti straps of a swimsuit top were visibly knotted together behind her neck. I knew her name, Cameron Alexander, because Murph and Hunter had pointed her out many times in the summer associate directory. Also known among the male attorneys as the menu. Cameron had been to Exeter and was a double Harvard, both college and law school. And, according to her firm bio, did some modeling in her spare time. Runway, not catalog. Rumor had it she was also dating a client, the manager of an exclusive hedge fund that we represented. Come on, Cameron, said the one called Steinberg. You said you'd be going in. I don't see anyone stopping you from swimming, Jason, Cameron Alexander said with an expert task of her head. Why does it always have to be follow the leader with you? This seemed to shut Steinberg up for a moment, and the other men in his group snickered. Hey Ingrid, mind if I join you? I looked up. It was Tim Hollister, a youngish corporate partner from our Emerging Markets group. A glint came off his Clark Kent glasses where the sunlight caught them just so. Of course not, I said, pull up a chair. I liked Tim Hollister. He had been in the associate class three years above me and seemed a little surprised to have woken up one day to discover himself occupying a huge corner office. Even after he had made partner at the firm, Tim still managed to seem like one of us. He was the type of guy who rarely asked associates to work on weekends if he wasn't also coming in himself. Tim swung the nearest deck chair around, parked it next to mine, and opened the bottled water he was holding. Oh, no tropical slushy today, Tim? I asked, inclining my head towards Steinberg and the hollowed out pineapple. Tim looked over and grinned. Wow it's only 10:50. I try to wait until at least noon. Then he looked at me and said, because this is always such a long day, you know? I nodded and felt grateful to Tim Hollister for having said this out loud. We sat in comfortable silence for a moment. I slid my huge Audrey Hepburn-style sunglasses back onto my face and studied Tim Hollister in profile. Rumor had it that Tim actually had a Ph.D. In political theory in addition to his law degree, which made him seem rather worthy of note to lots of women at the firm. As I was busy thinking all this, he opened his mouth and said to me, So Ingrid, the buzz is that you've impressed the hell out of the SunCorp CEO. I nearly fell out of my chair. Tim Hollister and I did not know each other well. The fact that this had made its way to him was news. I'm surprised you heard about that, Tim, but thanks, I said. Are you kidding? Tim looked genuinely happy for me. There are no secrets around this place, believe me. Marty Adler's been crowing about you all week. And I just wanted to say I think it's really well deserved. I felt my face flush with pleasure. I tried to think of something both witty and sincere to say back. But Tim had already turned away from me and was looking toward the exit. Gavin Dunlop, another young M&A partner, was gesturing impatiently at him, pointing at his watch and making exaggerated swinging motions with both arms. Tim stood. I gotta run. I have an 11 o'clock tee time. See you, and thanks. I really appreciate what you said. Any time. Tim jogged over toward Gavin and the two of them headed up the grassy slope toward the clubhouse. I took in a long, deep breath and stretched out my arms and legs as far as they would reach, feeling the pleasant pull in each muscle. The sheer joy of being young and appreciated and good at what you did. I draped one arm lazily above my head and closed my eyes, luxuriating in the warmth of the sun and in Tim Hollister's words. I think it's really well deserved. My eyes were still closed when suddenly I thought, it's really quiet. It's too quiet. A reverent hush had fallen over the pool deck and when I opened my eyes I saw why. Cameron Alexander had now peeled off her cover-up and was sauntering toward the shallow end of the pool wearing only white string bikini. She moved with an unhurried grace, as if she were aware of so many eyes on her and really didn't mind. Steinberg was obediently loping along behind her, still clasping his ridiculous pineapple beverage. He looked like a five-year-old on Christmas morning. For women lawyers at a firm outing, the swimsuit question presents a conundrum. Just what should a young career woman wear to what was essentially a pool party thrown by one's employer? On the one hand, let's be honest. Companies value good looks and sex appeal as much as anyone. So if you are an attractive young woman, you didn't exactly want to be the class prude huddled poolside in a parka. On the other hand, showing too much skin wasn't a good idea either. Especially not if you ever expected to be taken seriously again, and especially not the year you were up for partner. Unflustered, Cameron Alexander stood alone at the water's edge. She raised one perfect pilates-toned leg and dipped a pointed toe into the water. It's still pretty cold, she announced, loud enough for everyone to hear. I think I'll wait a bit. Steinberg didn't seem disappointed to hear this, as his objective had already been achieved. Fine with me, he said, shaking his empty pineapple drink at her. I'm out. Let's go get another drink. Cameron shrugged and together they walked to the back of the drinks line, where they were quickly joined by two male partners who were suddenly very interested in striking up a conversation with the summer associates. Before long, Cameron and Steinberg's own group of friends joined them too, forming a large gaggle in front of the open bar. All of the summers were trying to schmooze all of the partners, but none succeeded like Cameron Alexander. She looked almost queenly, wearing a beneficent smile and occasionally throwing her head back with laughter as if it were the most natural thing in the world to be standing around barefoot with the corporate tax partners chatting animatedly about the latest summer action flick. All the while wearing a white string bikini and gesturing with your mojito for emphasis. I was, if I'm being honest, jealous. Of course I was. But not actually of the way Cameron looked in a white string bikini. Instead, I was jealous of her confidence and her utter unselfconsciousness. What must be like, I marveled, to go through life so utterly unwary? So wholly certain of your belonging to a place that it was never necessary to consider how your next move might be perceived? Making partner at Parsons, Valentine, and Hunt felt like a big final exam to which a select few held the answer key, while the rest of us schmucks had to study. So that is one scene that illustrates Ingrid's frequent, but not constant, views of life in the workplace as an outsider looking in. But just as frequently she sometimes experiences her corporate career from the point of view of an insider looking out. Because she is someone who has been extremely successful in her career. She has perfected the art of passing and she as blended basically seamlessly into the corporate culture. Until something happens in the plot of the story where all of a sudden her difference and her status as not only a woman, but also a woman of color in particular, is suddenly thrown into sharp relief. So it's not a plot spoiler to say that at one point her company engages a diversity consultant. So they have to engage this outside diversity and inclusion corporate consultant to come in. And because Ingrid is one of the very, very few senior level women, and also she is a woman of color, she is asked to subject yourself to an interview with this diversity consultant. And this is their first meeting. Now you've obviously been very successful in your career here and that's terrific. But could I invite you to speculate on why there's only one of you who has made it this far? That is to say, why there aren't more women of color up for partnership. While I tried to think of a diplomatic response, Dr. Rossi held up an Excel spreadsheet. I see that in your entering class there was another Asian American woman, but she quit within the first year and a half. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts about this. Why do you feel the company was unable to retain her? I remembered this woman, Zhang Liu, very clearly. For the first few months after our new associate orientation a lot of people had had trouble telling us apart, even though we looked nothing alike. Zhang wore her hair short with bangs, while mine was long and layered. Zhang also stood a head taller than me, yet a year later we still got each other's interoffice mail. Zhang Liu was from Beijing and had come to the States at the age of 18 to attend MIT. She had aced the bar exam and every other standardized test known to civilization, Zhang was brilliant, but she spoke English that was technically correct, yet strongly accented. Her blunt cut hair sometimes looked like it needed shampooing, and she wore shapeless, ill-fitting suits that obscured what was actually really decent figure. She was extremely shy and never joined in when a group of us went out to grab lunch or drinks after work. And on the rare occasions when she did accept our invitation to come out, Zhang would hover silently on the outer fringes of our group nursing single 7 Up while the rest of us tossed back martinis and traded dirty jokes and gossip. And when she did speak her voice was so soft and low it barely rose above a whisper. Once at a department meeting I had seen Marty Adler lose his patience and snap, speak up, Zhang, for God's sake. I had never Marty Adler speak to another associate like that either before or since, and it had stuck with me. Another time Harold Rubenstein had praised Zhang for an excellent research memo she had prepared. This was extremely well done, Zhang, he said in front of all of us. Great job. But Zhang had blushed and stammered something in protest about how it had really been a team effort and that truly two summer associates had done most of the work. She just wasn't getting it. Everyone knew that on the rare occasion when a partner publicly praised your work, the only right answer was thank you. About a year after we started, Zhang ventured to my office late one night. She knocked tentatively on my door and I looked up startled from the stack of corporate minutes I'd been reviewing and marking up. Apropos of nothing, Zhang Liu asked me if I knew how to speak Chinese. No, I lied. I knew how much courage this must have taken on her part, and I knew just how much it must have cost her. Yet, to my own embarrassment, I could not summon the courage in myself to do the kind thing. It had only did my own first year, my position at the firm was not yet so secure that I thought that I could afford to be associated with Zhang Liu any more than I already was. I was terrified she'd drag me down. I was passing and she was not. Zhang stuck it out at Parsons Valentine a few more months, collected her bonus, and then quit. I had no idea where she'd landed. I sighed at Dr. Rossi. All right, look. Let's just say that in my experience, most white guys are still a lot more comfortable working with other guys who look, talk, and act more or less like them. Well what about the various initiatives of the diversity committee, prodded Dr. Rossi? I snorted. As far as I could tell until the incident, the diversity committee at this firm had been all but defunct. Their initiatives had consisted of taking associates to see The Lion King on Broadway, throwing a Margarita happy hour on Cinco de Mayo, and serving spring rolls and dumplings in the corporate cafeteria during Asian-Pacific American Heritage Month. When we didn't need *** dumpling day in the corporate cafeteria. What we needed were decoder rings for all the unwritten rules of survival here. SUNNI YUEN: Thank you, Helen. That raises a lot of interesting themes here. Just in those two passages. But your protagonist, Ingrid Yung, who is a Type A personality, who can play in same league as the boys. And part of that is using the same slang and lingo and culture. Tell us more about conference room bingo. HELEN WAN: Conference room bingo is something that we actually did play when I was a young associate at an M&A large law firm where the corporate jargon and the corporate speak get so ridiculous. Like kicking the tires or whatever the phrase of the day. These catchphrases that people learn in B-school and then tote to their jobs. Or another one of my favorites was learnings. Let's write down our learnings from today. And low-hanging fruit, like these kinds of phrases. And so we would write down a bunch of these catchphrases, prior to a meeting, and we would pick certain like phrases that paid. And if one of the ones that you chose not uttered during the course of the meeting, we played for $20 stakes. SUNNI YUEN: Now these phrases that pay, more on this sports metaphor side? HELEN WAN: A lot of sports metaphors, definitely. Yeah. SUNNI YUEN: OK. HELEN WAN: But not all. SUNNI YUEN: So I thought it'd be interesting to have a small exercise to look at some Google phrases that pay. HELEN WAN: Oh yeah, What are some Google phrases that pay? SUNNI YUEN: However, I'm going to you which our characters would be the most likely to say that phrase and why? HELEN WAN: OK. SUNNI YUEN: OK. So the first one is herd your black sheep. HELEN WAN: Wait-- SUNNI YUEN: Herd your black sheep. HELEN WAN: Who would be the most likely character to say that? SUNNI YUEN: Yes. HELEN WAN: Maybe Murph, actually. SUNNI YUEN: So tell us a little bit more about Murph, and why, and what this phrase means to Murph? HELEN WAN: Well I'm not even sure what the phrase means at Google. Herd your black sheep? Okay. SUNNI YUEN: Right. HELEN WAN: Does that mean that something went wrong for that person? SUNNI YUEN: What I've heard is being used in the context for is when you've got a lot of restless contributors with unconventional ideas who are discontent because they can see alternate ways of doing things, but they haven't had a chance to try it. Because the established way is what everybody sticks with. HELEN WAN: I kind of love that. I'm going to use that somehow. But I think I could see Murph uttering that to someone. A little bit about the Murph character in the novel. Basically every single character in the novel is imperfect because that's real life. None of us is perfect. And also to an author it's just much, much, much more interesting writing about imperfect people than about plastic people. So Murph is someone who if you look at him, one might assume that he just has it made. He is the golden boy of the firm. Some very, very senior level rainmakers at the company have identified him as the golden boy, as I said, and have taken him under their wing. He just knows how to play the game perfectly. He always knows how to say the right thing. So Ingrid assumes a lot of things about him. And he is just someone who would know all of the catchphrases and know how to employ them perfectly and insinuates himself socially very, very well at the firm. SUNNI YUEN: Great. So another phrase that pays from Google, moon shot. HELEN WAN: What? SUNNI YUEN: Moon shot. HELEN WAN: Moon shocked. AUDIENCE: Shot. SUNNI YUEN: Shot. HELEN WAN: Oh, moon shot. SUNNI YUEN: Yes. HELEN WAN: OK. What is that context? SUNNI YUEN: This is something that we at Google think about. Instead of just reaching for the stars, you reach for the moon. Big, laudable goals. HELEN WAN: OK, so that's kind of like pie in the sky. SUNNI YUEN: Bigger than pie in the sky. Pie in the sky is old. HELEN WAN: So kind of-- SUNNI YUEN: We're talking about universe here. Way up. HELEN WAN: But is it in a positive context? Like achievable. SUNNI YUEN: It's like setting your goals. HELEN WAN: Oh, OK. SUNNI YUEN: Are you going to make it achievable even if it seems like it's not achievable? HELEN WAN: I see. Well Ingrid is someone who, I think, sets goals like that for herself. And has always done that throughout her life. Actually, one of the additional themes that are very important to the book, aside from just the theme of advancing the careers of both women and women and people of color in corporate America generally, I was also very interested in writing about this idea about women's very complicated relationship with ambition. Yes I do think that it's a very complicated relationship with ambition. And that's for a lot of societal and cultural underpinnings. And so I guess she is someone who sets all of these moon shot type goals for herself. Not necessarily because she wants to, but because she's one of the very few who can. And that is a theme that I think-- SUNNI YUEN: And her moon shot is to make partner, specifically. HELEN WAN: Yes. SUNNI YUEN: OK, and let's do one last Google phrase to pay. I'm uncomfortably excited. Who is the character who's most likely to say that and why? HELEN WAN: Uncomfortably excited. Maybe Tyler, actually. SUNNI YUEN: OK. And tell us about Tyler. HELEN WAN: So Tyler is-- actually he is the other very senior person of color who has managed to make it quite far in the firm. But Ingrid is his closest confidante and friend at the firm because he's someone who, unlike Murph-- he's sort of the anti-Murph. So he, like Ingrid, being a woman of color, he also occupies sort of a double outsider status within this company. He is an openly gay African American male attorney. And so he and Ingrid have bonded over this fact. They're clearly the stars of the glossy firm recruiting brochure, et cetera. Always asked to be photographed in this context. But unlike Ingrid, he is someone who-- basically he has one foot out the door and he is not setting that same goal of partnership for himself. In other words, he has already sort of checked out. And Ingrid is very, very nervous about the day that he's going to leave because then she'll be left. He really is her one confidant and close friend who she can go to for candid conversations about some of these issues. SUNNI YUEN: It seems like Tyler's more-- in terms of being photographed for the firm's diversity brochures and everything, he's a very passive participant in those efforts. HELEN WAN: That's fair to say. SUNNI YUEN: And even Ingrid herself actually kind of rejects participating as the diversity initiative liaison initially. And it's only after she is convinced by a senior partner that it is good for her to consider to become partner that she actually assumed the role reluctantly. In your opinion, and based on your experience, does participating in diversity efforts dampen one's ability to blend in and relate to everybody else? HELEN WAN: This has been a question that has been very frequently raised a lot of the places where I've spoken about the book. Particularly when the question comes from other senior level women who have stayed within their corporate careers for a very long time. And it seems like people fall into these two different fairly divided camps. One set feels not resentful, but that it is quite a burden. That they're always asked to, hey can you be a mentor to this person? Can you come speak on this panel? Can you be on this committee please? That their point of view was so on top of my normal responsibilities of my already very demanding day job, I have this extra investment of time that the company will ask me to do just by virtue of me being a woman, being a very senior woman, et cetera. And not that they don't want to do it, it's just that they view it as an added obligation that is not necessarily recognized come compensation time or promotion time. But another set, and I would say the majority actually, don't share that view. And say, OK yes it is another time sink. It is another added obligation that perhaps my colleague Bob in office next door does not have. But they also view it as quite a privilege too. And they don't have this view of, well 25 years ago when I was starting out I didn't have a mentor, so why should I? Most people do not have that view anymore in the audiences that I have been speaking to over the last two months. SUNNI YUEN: What is the critical difference between being a role model or a figurehead for diversity efforts versus actively engaging and mentoring? What really makes the difference? HELEN WAN: So in terms of numbers and actually moving the needle, I think. SUNNI YUEN: Yes. HELEN WAN: So it's been interesting. There has been a lot of conversation-- I'm sure this will be nothing new to this audience-- but a lot of conversation recently about the move from traditional mentoring to something called sponsorship, which is a very, very crucial difference. So basically, as you probably know, a mentor is someone who can offer advice and be someone who can offer candid feedback, who can take you out to lunch once in a while, et cetera, and talk to you about your career. While a sponsor is someone who is going to be talking about you and actually promoting you and your career potential to those who are in a position to do something about it. And in the various large companies where I've been talking about my book and the large national law firms and law schools where I have been talking about my book recently, there is tremendous conversation about this move from mentorship to sponsorship. Understanding that sponsorship is what is actually going to move the needle. And also I'm really encouraged by a lot of companies doing very, very smart things with their employee professional development training programs. Like putting budget toward very, very smart programs such as bringing in consultants to tell you how do you get the most of your once a year performance review. How do you get the most out of that conversation so that no one can be blindsided later down the road if you are, let's say, passed over? And no one ever gave me the feedback that I was not seen as aggressive enough to drive new business. When would I have heard that? You do hear that refrain over and over, particularly from female employees. And companies are starting to do something about it, which I think it's great. The other thing that they are starting to do is instead of having formalistic-- assigning very artificial-feeling mentorship programs like, hey you, Mary, will mentor John or Sarah. That is mandated by the company. I've never really put those programs tend to work. Because it's kind of like dating, right? You can't assign somebody a boyfriend. Life would be so much easier if you could. SUNNI YUEN: That's what [INAUDIBLE]. HELEN WAN: Exactly. But no, it's got to be organic. You've got to have chemistry, and rapport, and the two people have to both want to be in that mentor-sponsor relationship. And I think that companies are kind of getting wise to that quickly. SUNNI YUEN: And so just to address your point in the theme of passing or blending in. So Ingrid is a protagonist who blends in, or passes in, with all the other senior associates, who are all male. And at the time she's also keenly aware that how she dresses has an impact in establishing a presence around men. She seems to be a fan of Audrey Hepburn's style in particular. Right before she meets with a senior partner she checks her mascara, lip gloss, ties her Audrey Hepburn style sheath sash. She wears stiletto pumps when she knows that she's meeting with a client who's maybe a bit more old school and expects women to wear a skirt and high heels. And what is that line between deemphasizing your gender in your interactions and behavior, yet at the same time playing up what some might call femininity? Or also just what may be expected for an older kind of professional code of dress for women. How to navigate that. HELEN WAN: Well I think Ingrid is someone who just has thought a lot about, well, what's the cultural baggage and societal baggage that each of us brings into our corporate workplace? And how can we make the most of the attributes that we do have while still trying to remain an authentic self? But she's someone who has figured out that, you know what, I am going to have to play by the current rules of this game because I will get to the goal quicker than if I try to change all the rules from the inside out. That's just not good. So that is sort of why she has observed, OK if I'm meeting with that client, that client's more old school. He is going to expect to see that the lawyer is wearing an actual suit. And she'll do it. Rather than someone who is going to try to, before she has made partner herself, try to break the rules in advance. SUNNI YUEN: Do you think she would actually break the rules if she were to become partner? HELEN WAN: Yes. I think most people feel much freer to break the rules after they've already attained C-suite status. SUNNI YUEN: OK. Do you think you would ever see her in her yoga pants going to work? HELEN WAN: You may not see Ingrid scooting through the halls. I just think that's human nature. Once a comfort level has been reached people feel far more free to be more of the person that they are outside of work, and bring that person to the office. SUNNI YUEN: So that raises an interesting point. What is work identity? What is personal identity? And to a certain extent one informs the other. You can't really divorce them. Ingrid's mother has a really compassionate and interesting quote where she's talking on the phone in one of the scenes to Ingrid saying that "Cindy and Susan are such good girls. So sweet, so nice. You could really learn something from them. They're not like you, always working, working. No time to meet anyone. Wasting your beautiful years." And then Ingrid's response to that is, "Well Cindy and Susan probably were both sweeter and nicer than I was, but you didn't make partner at one of the most powerful firms in the country by being sweet and nice." Can anyone climb the corporate ladder and still be sweet and nice without wasting their beautiful years? HELEN WAN: No one has ever asked that question posed in quite that way before. Although I do get asked a lot in a lot of audiences of women lawyers, for example, we talk a lot about is it possible to become partner or be viewed as a real rainmaking partner without coming across as this very aggressive and frankly, quote, "unfeminine" type. I actually got asked that question. Can one remain a feminine type person while achieving success? And I think the answer is hopefully yes. Because first of all, I think that if somebody is not being authentic to their own personality, I actually don't think that they're going to be able to pull that off forever and achieve and maintain a level of corporate success. Because I think people can see through the *** and go, if you are natural personality is not that sort of hard driving, aggressive, bad cop person, I think that's not going to ultimately be believed. And so just as a matter of personal survival, I think you do have to cultivate a workplace presence that is believable because it's true. SUNNI YUEN: And does work-life balance mean different things in that very top corporate echelon for ambitions men versus women? HELEN WAN: Oh absolutely. I think it still does. But companies and firms are getting better. For example, one other thing that I have seen discussed a lot at the companies and firms have invited me to come speak are a lot of conversations about a flex time track. A really possible way to make partner while still having flexible schedules. Actually a lot of tech companies are leading the charge here. Are really showing a lot of leadership in this context. But even older companies as well. With older, perhaps, and more old school management, also are coming around to this idea. I've been speaking at a lot of law firms where they have actually laid out now for the first time written policies, whereas before it was all kind of nebulous and through word of mouth. No one really knew what the firm's real policy was about flex time. Whether one could make partner and still be flex time. Now some firms are actually willing to write it down, a policy, and actually distribute it to all of their lawyers and say, there is a path to partnership if you're flex time, and here it is. SUNNI YUEN: So they're starting the dialogue, they're being transparent about it. HELEN WAN: Exactly. SUNNI YUEN: It's been codified. HELEN WAN: Yeah. Now how many women have? How many women and men successfully do that? That's a different conversation. But at least there's a path now that is written down and objective criteria that can be disseminated so that at least people can be talking about the same set of criteria at least. SUNNI YUEN: And so just going back to the question of tackling stereotypes and promoting diversity. Your book actually tackles a perception that Asian Americans are often viewed as the model minority. HELEN WAN: Yes. SUNNI YUEN: There's a scene where Ingrid loses her temper because one of the partners says something about Asian Americans having done all right because by objective economic measure they are right up there with whites. And then Ingrid goes berserk. As berserk as you can. HELEN WAN: Reasonably berserk. SUNNI YUEN: That should be a new phrase that pays, by the way. And she breaks what she calls her own cardinal rule of avoiding any discussion about race. HELEN WAN: In the workplace, yeah. SUNNI YUEN: When is the right time to actually have that conversation without making an issue out of it in a way that is not productive? HELEN WAN: Right. This is an absolutely crucial, crucial question. I think that the answer depends maddeningly, as with so many other things, it's totally context and circumstance specific. And it also depends very, very much on your own level and position within that company at that time. So actually, one young woman who I met at one of these book events, she came up to me to ask about a situation that had recently happened to her. She is a young lawyer. She was at a social event with a partner-- a very powerful partner-- who heads the department that she hopes to eventually be very successful in. And he made a ching chong joke. Yes, people are still doing this. I know. And he made a ching chong joke about somebody who was a business person on the other side of a deal that they were all working on. And predictably, the other two, who were mid-level associates, who heard the joke, were horrified. But they also themselves are subordinate to this particular partner. They are mid-level associates. And so what they did was they turned to her and at least wanted to let her know that they understood that this was crazy. So they would turn to her and go, sorry, but not say something too him. And then later, after they were out of that situation, both separately came to her and said, oh my God. WTF? I am so sorry. SUNNI YUEN: Was that too late, though? Because they waited reactively. HELEN WAN: Right. So the moment had passed. There was no teachable moment for that particular partner. But quite honestly, just thinking about it and trying to situate myself in that situation, if I were the summer associate I certainly would not have felt comfortable lecturing him under those circumstances. And I don't know enough about how senior or what the position within the firm of those other two more mid-level attorneys-- I don't know enough about those two people to know whether there could've been an opportunity to raise the point or not. I do think in general those moments tend to pass and a lot of teachable moments are wasted, or they're not taken advantage of. Which actually, it's sort of a chicken and the egg problem, right? So the sooner we can have more sensitized people in more senior positions who are on equal professional footing with this particular person, only then are you going to have people who feel fully comfortable saying, Bob, seriously? And until that day comes, I think there will be a lot of moments like that lost into the ether. And I also am very, very sensitive to the fact that I don't think that we should have unrealistic expectations about what people can feel comfortable doing. Most people are not going to feel comfortable challenging their boss, the head of the department who does their performance review. SUNNI YUEN: Or a client. HELEN WAN: Yeah, or a client. You're not going to lecture them on race. You're just not. And that's why I think that the more there are people who are on an equal professional footing, I think that these kinds of unfortunate moments will happen with less and less and less frequency in the future. SUNNI YUEN: So how do you negate the perception that sometimes the idea is that someone advances because of a meritocracy? They are darn good at what they do. They deserve to be promoted. But then you also, because of certain diversity initiatives, there might be some kind of perception there is a quota-based system. And I think in your book there's an insinuation that Ingrid only landed her role in a massive transaction, massive deal, because the vendor required a certain representation from a diverse associate. How do you counter that, and do quotas work? HELEN WAN: Well actually-- it comes from, I think, people having their hearts in the right place and wanting to give more business to, and more business attribution credit to, more people of color and women. But I think you have to be incredibly, incredibly careful about the way these so-called vendor requirements, or minority vendor requirements, in RFPs get played out. I think there's really a right way and a wrong way to do it. I think that the ways in which it can actually help move the needle positively are when it's not just, hey yeah, yeah, yeah, can you bring some brown people to the beauty pageant? When we're shopping for outside counsel. I have seen that. SUNNI YUEN: Was that from personal experience? HELEN WAN: I have a lot of friends who are lawyers and who are now partners at their law firms who have told me that they have seen right ways and wrong ways to do this at firms. Where the client will say, yeah please, we would like to see a female partner, or we would like to see a diverse attorney at the beauty pageant. And then so the firm does. And the client clearly just never follows up on it. Never is like, you know, I would like to know out of those people you brought to the beauty pageant, who was actually working on my matter? How many hours did those people actually bill on my matter? And I want to know who are the substantive deal team leads working this particular project. And of course when the client doesn't follow up, the message that is then sent to the law firm is, well they don't really care and they're doing this as a check box. However, I also know of other companies who are doing it in a much more meaningful way. Where yes, they have messaged it is important to us, Client X corporation, for you guys to have a diverse team working on this matter. And not only that, we intend to develop personal relationships with those attorneys on your team who are going to be working on this matter. I even have heard of companies that are doing really great, very creative programs such as seconding attorneys in-house so that the client really does have an opportunity to develop a personal relationship with these kind of up-and-coming lawyers. And that definitely does lead to real progress I have seen. SUNNI YUEN: And just going to, again, narrow a lens to your character's journey in your book, Ingrid gets stymied in their partner track quest. And then at the end when she's stymied by institutional obstacles, she's tried the conventional path. She's tried to beat the system by playing along the rules by passing, by blending. And then at the end of it she comes out and just says, I'm going to just pretty much charge my own path forward. Do you think that's common for smart, independent women to first try the conventional path before deciding to make the leap into becoming a solo entrepreneur? HELEN WAN: Yes, absolutely. And I think it's particularly common for Asian American men and women to do that. SUNNI YUEN: Why is that? HELEN WAN: I just think that there are a lot of-- and obviously it was very important to me in writing this book-- I wrote this book because when I landed as a 25-year-old, first job out of law school. Not only was it my first job out of law school, it was my first job period. Because I had gone straight through from high school to college to law school. Landed in the M&A department at this large national law firm. It's truly, not counting things like summer internships, actually was my first job, crazily. If you think about that. And when I got there I realized that all of those skill sets that had served me so well up until that point in my life, namely knowing how to be good at school, knowing how to take tests well, knowing how to make good grades, just studying hard, knowing how to do that. Were sort of out the window. They were kind of irrelevant in the corporate game. I mean obviously hard work, yes it is important. You have to have the goods, after all. But everybody does at that point. You are starting over with a fresh slate. Everyone there was a good student. Everyone there aced the LSAT. Everyone there graduated from the same five law schools and landed in Manhattan. So being a good student no longer distinguishes you. What does distinguish you, however, is being really, really fluent in the language of the firm. Being really great at integrating yourself in the social fabric of the firm. I soon realized that contrary to everything that my-- at least in my own Chinese American family-- contrary to what a lot of Chinese American first generation immigrant kids are told, I think, it is actually far more important to show up at the Fridays at five cocktail hour rather than spend that hour holed up in your office with the door closed billing, billing, billing. Totally invisible and no one knows you're in there. Those were the cultural messages of hey, how to be successful in your first job, that I actually had to relearn. Because all of those things that a lot of Asian American kids are told, for example, self promotion is bad. It's a bad word. Don't self-promote. You have to be humble. You have to be modest. You have to keep your head down. Don't stick out. Don't rock the boat. Just go along and it's a meritocracy, so hard work will be rewarded. And hard work matters, but by the time you reach the Parsons Valentines of the world, everyone there is good at what they do. So you need to master those soft skills that they can't teach you in business school or law school. I wasn't seeing any smart contemporary stories being written about that experience from the point of view of a young person trying to make his or her way in corporate America. So that's why I wrote the book. SUNNI YUEN: Great book. We should check it out. We have a few minutes open for questions, if anyone in the audience has any. Make sure you go to the mic so we can capture it. AUDIENCE: Yes, I have a question. I'm not really sure the answer, which is why I'm asking the question. Or how to find out the answer to this. But would you say that is harder to overcome adversity in corporate America if you come from a background of being poor, like not having lots of means, or coming from a class of people that was traditionally discriminated against, whether or not you have means? Thank you. HELEN WAN: Interesting question. I actually don't know that one has a harder road then the other. One thing that it was important to me to do with the characters in the story is to portray that actually everyone-- Ingrid mistakenly assumes that everyone else finds the firm experience easier than she does. And that is a wrong-- that's not true. So without giving anything away, there is one character for whom class politics becomes very, very important. And I don't think that you can make the statement that one necessarily outweighs the other. But I do think that it was important to me to be writing about someone who occupies this sort of double outsider status. Ingrid is not only woman, but also a minority. And I do think that when one occupies that kind of double outsider status it certainly compounds things. AUDIENCE: So it sounds like personally the story is only vaguely autobiographical, but how closely how closely do the protagonist's experiences at the law firm mirror what you experienced there? HELEN WAN: Oh, well I definitely tried to make the anecdotes and the experiences that happened to all of the young lawyers at the firm as realistic as possible. I certainly did draw from my own personal experiences and the experiences of-- I'm very lucky to have a close knit group of friends who were very forthcoming in sharing their own personal real life experiences in whatever corporate setting they work in. Whether it's media or the financial sector or tech. They're not all lawyers, but they do all work in corporate America. And when we get together and just in trusted company and share stories, it was amazing to me how remarkably similar a lot of our experiences in corporate America were and are. And so that was when some of us would jokingly say, someone should write these all down. Someone should write a book. And so I did start writing them down. So yes. The scenes that take place in the book, while fiction, I tried very hard to make them as realistic as possible. And based on the kinds of things that can and do still happen. AUDIENCE: Another question. So it sounds like writing this but was something of a calling based on your experiences with life. But having written one book of fiction, was it fun? Would you do it again? HELEN WAN: Oh yes, absolutely. Yes. This has been a tremendous, tremendous experience. I still kind of feel like I'm having a great dream from which I will wake up any moment. Getting a text from a friend being like, did you know that your book is reviewed in today's Wall Street Journal was kind of like, what? It has been just such a tremendous learning experience. I really like actually speaking to student audiences the best. I mean, no offense to Google. But it's so gratifying when you meet a young reader who comes up, gets his or her book signed, and tells you, I wish I had been able to read this book when I was 17 at my boarding school in Massachusetts, because I would've felt much less alone. That just totally makes my whole day and just makes me feel like wow. OK. The 12 years that I have spent writing this book may have been worth it, if one person can tell me that my book helped make them feel a little less alone. To a first-time novelist there's no better compliment. So yes, absolutely. I would write a book again. And I am working on book two. AUDIENCE: Thanks for coming to chat with us. HELEN WAN: Thank you. AUDIENCE: So I though your description of the law firm diversity initiatives was really funny. And before I came here, I was an M&A associate at a big firm. And I remember those sort of very ham-handed, but in my opinion well-intentioned-- HELEN WAN: I think well-intentioned too. AUDIENCE: At tempts at diversity. Or promoting diversity or some sort of understanding among colleagues. So I was curious as to your thoughts on to what extent you can ever do a diversity initiative in a way that doesn't seem like very silly or doesn't end with margaritas on Cinco de Mayo? HELEN WAN: I think that yes, absolutely there are-- as we were just came out with the minority vendor requirements, there are great ways and wrong ways to do diversity efforts at law firms as well. Or companies, for that matter. And it's been interesting that-- it is a novel, and this fictitious firm is quite clearly doing it the wrong way. But only because they're doing it not for the right reasons. The motivations are not genuine. But I am seeing a lot of law firms where, as you said, it is incredibly well-intentioned. They are doing, like a lot of the initiatives that I just described, about trainings on what are the tools that you can use to actually identify for yourself the right mentor, sponsor. Then how do you go and organically cultivate these relationships? I've seen culturally-specific trainings geared at young associates at law firms to, for lack of a better term, cultivate what is your leadership style? Cultivate an executive presence. Cultivate and develop your personal brand/ and then make sure you are projecting your personal brand throughout the company or firm. For example, if you are young associate that works in a satellite office, how do you make sure that your own personal brand is not only known to people who can help you professionally at headquarters, but throughout the rest of the locations of the company? I'm seeing a lot of firms talking about real hands-on trainings, which obviously are far more useful than drinks on Cinco de Mayo. AUDIENCE: Yeah, sure. But those things are all sort of facially diversity-neutral, right? Which I like. It's like you, Asian American associate, have as much need for a mentor who understands you as this associate over here. Or maybe more so. You could argue different things. But it isn't say Lunar Gala dumplings sort of event. I was curious to what extent do you think even cognizing of the concept, or discussing the concept of diversity puts people in a different frame of mind? HELEN WAN: You mean to what extent are you kind of, unfortunately, pigeonholing when you even talk about, hey here's a-- AUDIENCE: Right. When you walk into a room and say, hey guys we're going to celebrate diversity, or we're going to make sure that we have a diverse set of associates, that you've already sort of separated some people from others. HELEN WAN: Well actually, I was just talking about this with someone who works in the-- she is a diversity and inclusion officer at a law firm. And she said it is for that reason that now law firms are incredibly, incredibly careful to when they have a culturally specific program like that, like that you're talking about, the audience has to be self-selecting, obviously. You can't just take the roster of attorneys, pick out all of the Chens and Chos and Wongs and Wangs and invite them to a, hey, here's a program on to be more aggressive. One law firm actually recently got into a bit of trouble for disseminating a memo to female-- you probably know what I'm talking about about-- attorneys on certain tips that were not taken kindly by lot of the attorneys. So I think that a lot of law firms have done very, very wise to the fact that many people may actually want some of these culturally specific trainings, but the audience has to self-select. AUDIENCE: Great. Thank you. AUDIENCE: One more question. Earlier when you were answering a question you mentioned vendors saying, send these people to the beauty pageant, and I was confused. I've never heard that term. Is that a [INAUDIBLE]? HELEN WAN: Sorry. That's a phrase that pays for us. Beauty pageant is when a client, let's say Google, needs to hire outside counsel for a particularly large transaction or other matter and they are interviewing law firms. And each law firm has to come in an interview for the job, for the gig. We call those beauty pageants. SUNNI YUEN: It's pitching, basically. HELEN WAN: It's a business pitch. And you would be surprised-- maybe you wouldn't be surprised-- how many times a senior woman or a senior African American, Latina, or Asian American partner gets sent to that business pitch but yet, curiously, doesn't work on the matter. SUNNI YUEN: All right. Great. So thank you, Helen, for coming in. HELEN WAN: Thank you so much. I had so much fun being here.