How Mlm Education is worth $150k in Traditional Business with Espree Devora on Catalystmlm

Brian Swichkow: Hello, hello and welcome to CatalystMLM, uh, I'm Brian Swichkow and today we have Espree Devora. And I'm very excited to introduce Espree because I met her a few months back. Uh, and as I was digging into her past, in what she actually does, um, I started finding all these amazing things. Uh, Zex Sports, which is a social network for extreme sports, We Are LA Tech, which is really a awesome community project for the LA community and bringing people together around the tech scene. And most recently, she's the founder of savebusinesstime.com. She's a contributor for uh, Tech Zulu. She has been featured on Forbes, South by Southwest, and CBS Radio. And uh, thank you so much for being on the show Espree. Espree Devora: Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. Brian: Yeah, and it was uh, it was awesome doing some research on you and kinda getting more into it and really just seeing all the different projects that you've done. And honestly I had, by the time I was actually like getting towards the end, I was like okay, I have enough information to do the interview. I had like 30 tabs open of different projects that you had done. Espree: Oh, yeah, it sounds like you were inside my brain. Brian: I, I was looking and it was an awesome place to be. So, so, how do you keep all of that managed? I mean, I, I, know that you have a lot of projects. Some are active, some are past, but how do you manage all that, and, and, make sure that you don't go insane? Espree: Um, Evernote. I, I, put, I organize everything in my Evernote by projects and inactive and active and I make sure that I could visually see what I'm working on. Because I think when it was just like trapped inside my brain, um. I don't have a true concept of time and really we can't um, we only have so many hours in the day and we can't apply just ya know project after project. We can't do anything well. So I literally created an Evernote so I could visually see what I have going on and move it around accordingly so um I'm realistic with where i spend my time and I turned down a lot of projects. Um, now, people will ask me. I'm a speaker of social media's business strategy and so a lot of people contact me to do reports um for their social media strategy and I turn most of them down. Brian: And so do you select, I mean, the projects based on how much time you have available or based on who you actually want to work with? Espree: Um, well, no, it's definitely always in anything I do, it's who I want to work with. Um, being passionate and liking the people I work with is a key priority. But it's so see, and I know this sounds terrible, it seems to be the people that beg me the most. I have to like . . . Brian: Oh yeah, say that again. Espree: The people that beg, that beg me the most and I'm not looking for them to beg me but I feel bad after a while and so as long as I like them, I'm like, alright man, I'll just, it's fine. I'll do it. Brian: I, I can definitely see that. Yeah, and then you. I don't know, somehow it makes, uh, you feel more excited about the project and more connected to it. Espree: Yeah, yeah I guess. I mean they're so excited that I actually am working on it. But I am, I mean for the most part, I don't do that anymore because I'm so focused on save business time and making that the best place it could possibly be that I understand I only have so many hours in a day and you know the whole cause of the save business time is not spending all my time working. I want to prioritize time with my friends, time, you know. I, I love to cook so time cooking, and then juicing vegetables. I know that sounds crazy but for me that's really enjoyable. Um, and it takes time right. It takes time to prepare a meal. That's why most of us, you now, are so microwave um addicted these days that, um, taking another yet another project will take me away from those things in my personal life. And having been an entrepreneur since I was a teenager. I was absoulty an obsessed workaholic for over ten years. I had a love affair with my computer. I think I still have a love affair with my computer. But I, I really killed, like killed by social life. Like, I just like, I just didn't want. It was like I sacrificed family, friends, showers, eating, health. All because I was just obsessed and in love with my company and I think it's great to have that fiery passion. Um. Brian: Yeah. Espree: With the business I'm building. But now my priorities have shifted a bit. Where like I spent my Sunday yesterday, in my head I was thinking about save business time all day and I was thinking about different things that I wanna do. Different youtube videos, whatever. But um, but what I actually did with my time is spend time. I went in a outsource date. Which I know we will get into later. And then I also met with two different girlfriends at two different times. One of my girl friends we were rollerblading on the beach. Another girlfriend went to the beach and did rings, and hence my sunburn. But um, but yeah, it's really, it's just really important to me to prioritize personal time. And that wasn't important to me before. Brian: Yeah, and that's awesome because I know um, because I know a lot of people in the multi-level marketing and any home based business they really, ah, get so focused on their vision than why they're doing the business in the first place that they commit to it and they commit to it fully. Espree: Yeah. Brian: So, I know we had talked about it before but um, actually, don't know too much about it but how much do you do with um. I know you do a lot of efficiency and automation but how much do you work with outsourcing and out tasking? Espree: So, um, everyday is what can I outsource so my whole life is about outsourcing. And I want to clear up what the definition of outsourcing is because I think that when people think outsourcing they think in India. Um, yes, I have a team in India who is awesome. I worked with them for a really long time, since my early 20s. And I have a team in the Philippines like, so, it's not about that. But to me outsourcing is delegating. I also have a team in the U.S. And I have a team in Canada. Ya know, and I have different amazing software that um I'm knowledgeable about that I can outsource to so for me the term outsource is really like a trendy way of saying like a master delegator. Like, ya know. Um, just every morning I wanna ask myself um, you know. What task, okay, so for instance, my favorite thing is um. And this is gonna sound really. I don't know. I think when I say it out loud it sounds pompous, but I don't mean it in a pompous way. My favorite thing is being a genuine person. Genuine in my relationships, in my business relationships, and my personal relationships. And, a lot of business tactics . . . Brian: Yeah. Espree: I feel aren't in alignment with um, that core value of mine being genuine. Brian: Yep, Yep. Espree: Like let's say I have this huge email list, and I send out an email to all of these people. Like I use Aweber. I have Aweber and MailChimp and I use Fusion software. By the way I think is great too, but whatever. I'm really big on tools. Okay, anyway, Aweber is what I'm talking about right now. So I send the, a huge um, I send a huge, ah email to all these people and it's a really genuine email but I mean. What can you expect when you see that the standard unsubscribe stuff at the bottom and you just, you know it's a form letter. You know it's not just for you. And it says, you know, hey, blah, blah, blah. It's just so much more personal to send someone a one on one email. Now that takes me an obscene amount of time. And I, but, that's what's important to me. Brian: Yep. Espree: And for me I wanna create that time for myself to email each person one on one. Which is what I do. I actually um, I don't know how tactical you want me to get. Should I just share what I do to like look into people? Or should I . . . Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Espree: Alright, so, what I do is I have a plugin called Reportative and when someone's on my email list my email um, Aweber sends me a notification because I set it up that way. The notification will come from the person who entered their email, so its already in my email box. And with this plugin, Reportative, I can see everything about who they are on the side. And then I can take a couple minutes to like, well, more than a couple minutes. But to look at their Twitter, and to look at their Facebook, and their LinkedIn, and to look at their company, and to get to know really like who someone's about, as much as you can online. And then I could say like, hey Brian, like, it's awesome that you know, that you're a business owner too. Like I've been a business owner for a really long time and, duh da duh, you give like, you have amazing Facebook marketing tips. Brian: Yeah. Espree: And like, I really appreciate that and you're like, Oh my God, this is definitely not a form email. Brian: Yeah, and so, and yeah, and so often in multi-level marketing, people um, are, taught, or they gravitate towards doing those form letters. But, you know, they don't put, they don't even put that much thought into those. So, it's really important to connect even if you do do form letters, um, that you really just make it so that it can be personal so that the message is directed to the person. Espree: Oh, totally. I mean, we're people. You're a person, I'm a person. I think people forget that they're not, you're not collecting emails. You like, took a second of someone's life. Brian: You're collecting people. Espree: Yeah! And that the, it's like someone's life. Someone had interest, like someone needed you. If even for a split second they expressed that. And like, it's about asking yourself, do you care about this person that needed you? Or, are you just trying to use them for something of personal gain. Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Espree: I mean, I know that sounds super intense, but like, that's how I feel in my business. So I turn to outsourcing because there is certain tasks in my company that maybe I would like, do better myself. Or maybe, I would um, maybe I would um, you know, want to do myself. But there not as important as the relationship building is to me. Brian: Yeah. Espree: So I say, okay. That, that I need to delegate. And sometimes I just feel somebody wouldn't do it as good as I would. But that's just like wanting to have control and like really they do it just fine. Ya know. So. Brian: So tell me about, I mean, ah, I guess tell me about a time when you know, you really felt the impact of being able to connect with people on that level when you, you know, got a response back that just made you. Espree: Oh my God, all week. So, check this out. So I sent out ya know, um, a few months ago, I sent out like a few hundred emails right. And like uh, the scaling, how do you scale? So I sent out a few hundred emails and it was a really genuine email, and I got , I mean all my peers. See, I feel like if I don't get a hundred percent open rate, like a hundred percent of people are gonna open it then I failed. My friends are like, Oh my God, I don't remember what my open rate was, but apparently it was like ridiculously high and my friends rolled their eyes at me that I was complaining. But like . . . Brian: And their gonna just start calling you and be like, how are you doing this. Espree: Yeah, right. But like I, I was like no, my email was like super genuine I don't like care if that many people opened it like. A ton of people responded but, not enough for me. Right, because I'm looking at every person as a person. Brian: Yup. Espree: Like that second of their life. So, when I changed my method, to doing it with Rapportive, and reaching out to everybody one on one. Which, again, like no joke, takes hours. Brian: Yeah. Espree: Like, it, it's like, it's not an easy thing to do. Um, but, I get a response almost every time. And I get to find all this cool stuff about people. Or I get to discover new tools. Or I get to discover new conferences, or. I mean, it's just like I get to know about their lives. I get to find out. Here's the coolest things, one of the coolest things. So, in the initial email I always ask people um, what, ah, how they found me. Brian: Right. Espree: And, um, they say, they say, how they found me but it's interesting because it's, it's, nothing I could see on my google analytics. Like one woman was like, oh, I was on this site, this business site, that lead me to this business site, which lead me to you. Brian: Yeah. Espree: Like google analytics wouldn't tell me all that, ya know. Or, what state of mind, oh, I was in google searching for this and this and that. And then I'm like, oh, did you find this and this and and that? And I happen to know another website that really relates to what they were looking for. I'm like, have you thought about this site, like it's really helpful. I've found it helpful. Brian: And you instantly add value. Espree: But, it's like, I'm building, I mean, maybe it sounds corny, but I'm building like genuine friendships. Brian: Right, yeah. Espree: So like business friendships. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's so much more fulfilling. So, yeah. Brian: And, you've, you've talked a lot about um, being a connector, and, and, I mean that's everywhere and I follow you on facebook. I follow you on twitter, um, and I, and I continually am surprised by how many people that are mutual friends, given how far apart we are and everything. And, so, I mean, I guess one question is were you always like that? Were you always that social and that much of a connector looking for those patterns? Espree: Um, well I'll tell answer that in a second, but maybe like, what do you mean. I mean, I know what you mean by how far apart we are but I think the people viewing may not know. So you wanna get into that? Like, how our lives are different. Brian: Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm east coast, your west coast. Ah, and, and, we have, you know, very different social circles in terms of tech versus multi level marketing. And I know you have some experience in multi level marketing but, it's still very different spaces and, and... Espree: Yup. Brian: You know, it, it's distance but it doesn't have to be distance in the sense of a relationship. And, um, I know you know that because I remember the last time we spoke it was supposed to be a 15 minute interview and I think it was a two and a half hour chat. Espree: Yeah. Brian: And uh, and then we the.... Espree: It's because you're that awesome. I'm just teasing. Brian: Aww, shucks. No, it cause you're awesome. And um, yeah, I mean so how ah, how are you able to, to do that. I mean, were you always you know social, and trying to find the patterns. Where you know like, oh you like this, you'd probably also like that. Or was that a learned skill? Espree: So, I, I'm naturally that way. Um, but what makes me naturally that way is I actually dissected myself so see what I do. And how, I'm just interested in that kind of stuff. And like processes in psychology. So, I, I think, it comes again, like, you know, not everybody. I have a competitor in myspace for example, who is totally about scaling, right. That particular company would never take the time to email every person one on one because it's crazy. And it's that same thing that makes me want to like genuinely reach out as the same thing that you know, make me be able to know a lot of people. It's that like that when I meet someone I don't care if their a billionaire or their a janitor. Like I don't qualify people, I don't, my head doesn't even wrap around qualifying people. Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Espree: I actually didn't even really know what qualifying people was until I went to a conference with this, um, with this woman who worked for a very established organization. And she said something like look at the badges. And I'm like, what do you mean? And that's when I learned what qualifying people was... Brian: :Yeah. Espree: you see who the other people work for in order to know who to talk to. I'm like, pshh, I don't understand what that's about. Like I just wanna talk to people in general, um. Brian: Yeah. Espree: and that's why I have to set that boundaries of like when I want to spend that time talking to people versus like having my personal life. Brian: Right. Right. Espree: Because that core value is just genuinely talking to anyone and everyone and not having an ulterior motive than just like and yeah, so when I get to talk to that many people um, anyone from the janitor to the billionaire they're like, they're like puzzle pieces in this game of people. And one person could add value to the other person and vice versa. Like they can each give each other value it's not just one sided and then I wanna like connect them together because that makes sense, it's logical. So um, so yeah, I just, I get to meet a ton and people and I, I get to know them as much as possible. And then they're, they just kinda like float around in my head naturally and then I wanna put them together when it makes sense. Brian: Yeah. That's awesome. Espree: Yeah, it's really cool. Brian: And I know that we, we had talked about it a little bit and, and. I know we share some similar viewpoints on topic. Um, but you know basically just pushing your boundaries in terms of you know, marketing your business as well as growing yourself and you know finding new ways to learn things by doing some really outlandish things. I know my favorite example recently and I've been following along is, your new website and your new venture I'll call it, which is a outsourceyourlovelife.com. Espree: Yeah... Brian: And, and, first of all, it's hilarious in in it's own right um. I mean you hired a virtual assistant and, and taught her everything that makes Espree, Espree, and, and, then theres there's two user accounts on the site there's the girl and the assistant. And, the assistant and and, its absolutely hysterical. I mean so, so, multiple questions. And the first half which is, is, how's that going? Espree: Um, it's going well. I ahh, I met,I met someone that was like awesome. It didn't work out in the end but it was like really cool. It's going well. I really don't enjoy online dating. I just don't. I don't like signing on the emails. I don't like getting on all these random meals, I don't like the random chit chat. It's just not how I wanna spend my time. So, um, I love having I like just showing up. I also, again you know this is perfect segway because I don't' like pre qualifying people and that goes with guys too so I don't want to be like, ahh I don't like what he looks like or be like I don't like what he does. Ya, know? So, I don't know anything about the guys, I don't know what they look like, it's completely blind. The assistant sets up everything and I'm trying all these new ways to do it. Like um, Tim Faris talks about it. Now,this isn't an original idea. I got it from you know, um, Tim Farris, who wrote the four hour work week. He talks about outsourcing is dating. How had had a whole bunch of dates back to back that setup up for him and he had different teams. Brian: I remember that. Espree: And like, the Brian: Oh, so is that like the link below? Yeah. Espree: Yeah, so um, and I have a blog post with the video so in outsource your love life with the video of him talking about that. And I also have a mind map of how he did that so I'm just, F.Y.I., but like um. So I, so I, I, had the idea to do that and then it kind it is naturally segwayed into my virtual assistant who was already running my business for me. She already knew me as, you know, an entrepreneur. And we have that rapport that um, she started doing it for me and it was just like awesome that I would just show up and the guy would be there and I would get to like, it's like I met him at a, I met, met, well, I guess, it's like I met him at a bar. Brian: Yeah, but they're kinda, yeah. Espree: So basically you know nothing about the person.. Brian: Right. Espree: but online right. So, um. But it's weird because they would know a lot about me just because, so yeah. So it's, it's enjoyable. Brian: So, um, so, I and I'm a big fan of talking about dating just because dating is something that everybody really knows in any culture to some degree. Espree: Yeah. Brian: And, yeah, and pushing your, I mean you're obviously pushing your comfort zone in terms of online dating and meeting new people. Espree: Yeah. Brian: And constantly building new connections even if you decide you know it's not the one. Espree: Right. Brian: Right, you know becomes a good friend so yet how do you parlay, you, you know, the education about yourself and about the different tools out there as well on how do you parlay that education from something like dating. Which seems you know, not in any way related to business. But how do you parlay it to using it to you know, grow? Espree: Honestly, I don't really understand your question, ah, but, and there is something I wanted to say about outsourcing your dating. And then we can talk about my personal growth because I think, I think, what you're asking about was personal growth, but one thing I want to address is a lot of people. Like for instance, this past week I outsourced my dating to my facebook friends and I said you guys set up a blind date for me. And he was really interesting.... Brian: Were there incentives? Espree: Nah, yeah, that I would get a date. That they would be responsible for that. I guess. But um, it was really interesting that a lot of people. Their initial reaction and I think this is really important about personal growth; which is what I think you were asking it about business is a lot of people initially said. Oh my gosh, like you need to be patient with love. Like, I essentially like don't be desperate in trying to find love right now, or something like that. Brian: Yeah. Espree: And I'm like, dude, calm down! Like, I'm, I'm thinking outside the box. Brian: Yeah. Espree: And having fun with life. Like don't take it so seriously like I think it's cool like I'm like putting. I mean think about it for over 10 years I didn't think about anything except my company. I was completely closed off. Brian: Right. Espree: So even the idea that I'm open to the possibility of meeting someone and it doesn't mean that I'm not comfortable being single. But at least be open to the opportunities that you want to have in your life, you know what I mean. Brian: Right. Espree: So, it's just like, like I'm, if I stayed on the same track I was before, like, the, I mean, the, I would meet someone that I would be attracted to and I'd literally walk away because I didn't want to be off focus. Brian: Yeah. Espree: So I'm different than that. I think that's a positive. So like I thought a different things that I could do. From like outsourcing to my facebook. I was mentioning before, I, I am the next thing I'm doing is I created a site specifically like it's almost like, um, it's almost like one of those personals in the old days, and I'm outsourcing it into a facebook ad where the facebook ad is gonna go to the site I'm gonna pick all the guys that I'd be interested in dating in the facebook ad. Like the criteria demographics. Brian: Yup. Espree: And then, um, I'm gonna do the Tim Farris thing where I have guys back to back to back on coffee dates during the weekend. And I mean, why not just like have fun with life and then, and when you talk about personal, personal growth and how that applies to personal growth, business growth. It's the same concepts like, have fun with the business have fun in growing. Um, I don't wanna say your business because I only wanna talk about my experiences, and that's okay but. I, I, wanna have fun growing my business, I want to think outside the box. If I wanna email each person one on one and that feels right to me, then do that. Brian: Yeah. Espree: You know, it doesn't mean I'm being, ah, an ineffective business owner because I'm not scaling, ya know. Brian: Right. Right. Espree: This world is what we create of it. Of like, for us. It's our own magical story and I think people get caught up in what society thinks like if you know people who initially responded like, don't be so desperate and then when I told them like hey this is what's going on. I'm thinking outside the box. I'm having an adventure in it. They're like, oh, that's really cool. Keep me posted. I'll let you know I know anyone. You know all ... Brian: Yeah, yeah. Espree: People come from their own perspectives and, and, and, so when they give you your, I mean give me their opinion or something. I appreciate everyone's an opinion and I'm open minded to it and I wanna hear it, but, like, I also have to know like at my core or what my own honesty is and then come from that place. Yeah. Brian: That's awesome. Espree: So, does that kinda answer your question? Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and, and, it's, it's just always interesting because you know. Me personally, you know, I learned from personal experiences and, and relate those to business experiences. And I know a lot of other people do the same thing. And it's, it doesn't matter where you learn it but it's going to be useful as long as you know something involves people and the other thing involves people than you're going to be learning. And, and, you know you could call it the entrepreneurial spirit and applying that to dating but and I mean, I guess it all drives back to the spirit itself, and, and when, you know, did you have a defining moment where you were like, you know know. This is when I know I, I , knew that I was an entrepreneur or was it something that you know, that you had to look back and say this is really the first point in where or if I was me now and this is me doing that, that was when I was first you know the entrepreneur. Espree: Um, I think I was a born entrepreneur. The first memory I have of being entrepreneurial was; I'm walking into Western Village with my father and seeing the empty office buildings and imagining what kind of business would go into them and how I would market them and their merchandise in there. And then, I can remember some in the business I thought of. Like different like T.V., for me they were basically like T.V. shows, like T.V. Land. I would create or something like that. Um. Brian: And how old were you? Espree: I think I was seven, or something. Brian: Oh, wow. Espree: Um, so that's why I think I was a born entrepreneur because I was so young. And, I didn't know what being an entrepreneur was was at seven. But I had these kinds of thoughts. Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Espree: So, that's what tells me, I don't think I even understood I was an entrepreneur until way after I'd started my first company. Really, like, I, I, didn't know what a start up was. I just loved, you know, the action sports, also called extreme sports. I love technology. I love traveling and I was like, this stuffs cool. I'm gonna like, make a website so I could connect with people. So like, this is how like, people gonna give up money, and so you know, yeah. I didn't, I wasn't like, I'm an entrepreneur let me go build the business. It was like, this is cool stuff that I really like wanna do something with. Because it's cool. Brian: You just had fun doing it. Espree: Yeah, and I, I think the hardest part is to remember how to hold onto that front. How to enjoy the business process because, like as I said, in later years I got obsessive and was never outdoors anymore. I wasn't ever living. It was always about being at the computer. And, um, and even now it's something that I have to constantly remind myself. To go live, like really live and experience life. I mean, have fun with my company um. By the way, I don't wanna forget there's this, this ethic thing that I learned in the past few weeks that I love that's really transformed the way I handle my business. So I definitely want to share that. Brian: Yeah, Yeah. Espree: But, um. But, yeah. So I, I, just need to remember every morning to like prioritize what's important and think about how I want to spend my time. And, that's it, and to remember to have fun in doing it all. And, and, it's not easy anymore. Like, it was really easy in the beginning when I was inexperienced and it's like the more, it's almost like the more I got to know the more crippled I became. Brian: Yup. Espree: And, um, what's really fascinating to me is all these people that start their new businesses or trying to start their new businesses and they're thinking they're not smart enough and they don't know or they don't have experience. Like, all that is just nonsense in our own brains. Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Espree: Ya know, it's like it's not real because my favorite thing to say is my intuition is my oracle. Because what I did all through growing up. Like through like my adult growing up was to think, oh my gosh you know, I'm 20 years old. I'm a 20 year old female what do I know and I would like. And when I raised money it was like, let me higher you know, a, a seasoned consultant who has like 30 years sales experience and he'll be able to make me succeed. And really, the whole time the only person who was, who had the power to make me succeed was me. Brian: Yup Espree: But I didn't have faith in myself because I was young and I was female in a male dominate world and all this stuff. And, um, luckily I was like a natural born like hustler, really ambitious. I would take a lot of chances. But like I doubted myself often, right. And I think it's natural we all, we still doubt ourselves, you know, not that often, it's just a natural human thing but. Like to understand that no other person has all the answers out there anymore than your intuition. Like, is so powerful because all these people that I meet that doubt themselves all the time and don't even take chance, at least I took chances. Like they don't even take steps and chances to like get ahead. And they don't, they don't like start listening to their inner voice. They're just like, five years from now they're gonna realize, oh my gosh, I just wasted the last five years. Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Espree: And it's sad to me. It's sad. Oh, I can't do that because I don't know enough. What do you mean? Like, go, try. Like I read, I read, I'm a real estate investor and, and, inactive now. But um, that's what I did that for years. And the way I became, the way I became a real estate investor is I read a Robert Kiyosaki book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, that's not the one I read, but it's what he's know for. I read um, Four Quadrants. That lead me to a bunch of other stuff including how I got to understand that MLM business. I can get into that. But um, so I read Robert Kiyosaki, Robert Kiyosaki was a real estate investor. And then I read every book that he suggested reading in that book. And then I finally invested in real estate and I thought I was the most prepared person on the planet because I read all these real estate books from all these super smart brilliant people. And, um, so I thought, right. And then, I knew nothing when I actually invested in real estate. And investing in real estate is what taught me how to invest in real estate. So okay, and I fell flat on my face right. Brian: That's a perfect, ah, segway cause you know and, and. It's important for people to remember that you know they hold that power and theres no one that's gonna come in front of them and say. You know, this is how everybody has to do it and if you do this you can be successful. Because in reality you have to do it and you have to work at it, but you have to make it your own. And, you know one of the things that, that I absolutely love teaching and talking about is, is failure. Because, you know, I, me personally, I have no backgrounds to do what I do and I learned it all by playing and by failure. Espree: Right. Brian: You know one question I want to ask you is what is a time where you tried something and you failed and you fell flat on your face. I mean, real estate investing included, and you learn from it and then grew stronger because of it. Espree: So, I posted this actually on my Facebook like two weeks ago. So let's not kid anyone around, failure sucks, it hurts, and you wanna wallow in bed and never come out. Um, it's horrible and miserable. And, it's a part of being an entrepreneur. Brian: Yup. Espree: Um, I'd rather experience failing then experience a mundane life. Or, where, I just, let life pass me by. Um, but that being said, it sucks. Ah, what I think failure has done for me. Because I never enjoy failure and I fail all the time. Um, I, I, think it's impossible not to fail. There's many failures, big failures. But it teaches me, no, no, no, it empowers me, not teaches me. It empowers me to be more compassionate. Because like, when I connect to someone. Like, you, you failed, I failed, right. On different things, I don't know the things that you failed at, you don't know the things I failed at. But, like, we've failed at different things, but I can understand your pain and you can understand my pain. Because we've been there. And some people are afraid to even experience that failure. But what you watching this would have by experiencing that failure, would be, you'd be able to connect with Brian and I more on a deeper level. You'd be part of our like, club. And I know it's like, who wants to be part of a failure club. And I mean, it's just, it's just, it's part of like those things in life. That like connect you on a deeper level. And I, and again, be relationships, being really important to me. A genuine relationships, I, I feel those, you know, experiences have empowered me. Had turned on the switch to be more a compassionate human being. And, yes, they've taught me lessons, but, I mean, listen. Failing sucks, it, it just does. But it's time less about all the stuff, sorry to break the news it's definitely something to be afraid of. I mean. But um, it's like I just, I know what's important to me and I know it's in my blood and I'm a true born entrepreneur and it comes with the territory and I, I will embrace it as much as I can. Um, I still will find days when I wanna wallow in bed. Brian: Yeah. Espree: But, it just is. Yeah. Brian: That's awesome. And, and I know that yeah I mean, it, it sucks but it's, once you get over it you know looking back it can seem that it was a lot easier when you're already beyond it, you know, you're connecting the dots looking backwards and, and... Espree: Or, how about this Brian, um, I mean, psychologically, if you don't fail the highs aren't high either. Brian: Yup. Yeah. Espree: I know that, but I mean, oh well, I just, I only want the highs. But I mean psychologically we can't even appreciate it. Like when I raise money. If I didn't know what it was like to not be able to raise money like maybe when I raise money it would be like uhh. It wouldn't be any excitement. Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Espree: And I wouldn't feel like dancing around. Brian: Because if you want an exciting, an exciting win you have to have the losses and um, as, as my neighbors know, when the, when I have a win there is a dance party in my living room. Espree: Oh, yeah. Brian: That will not be in the bloopers. Espree: Oh no, I ahh. I get really excited. I've had some tremendous things happen in my life and it's just. Yeah, I screech. I jump around and yeah. Brian: That's awesome. So, I mean, ya know, I, I, know this is ah, something else that I saw that you were good at as, as, I'm going around... Espree: I'm good at something? Brian: Your good at a lot of things. Espree: Your sweet. I'm good at getting sunburnt. That's what I'm good at. Brian: Well, yeah, I'm good at getting sunburnt in odd patterns. Espree: Can we talk about something that a lot of people talk about, a lot of new entrepreneurs talk about. So, I'm sitting in my house right now. I actually have an office but I'm sitting in my house. A lot of stuff comes up of like, if I. Is that the first step I need to take in starting my own business? Do I need to go get an office? Why get an office? Like, should we talk about that for a second? Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Espree: I think it comes up a lot when someone talks to me. Brian: Well, and, and, and, of the things that we've talked about before. I mean you talked about what outsourcing, you talked about using tools, you talked about time management. And, and, one of the things that I saw that you were really stellar at I would love to hear more about is, you know how you grow into that. Cause obviously if you jump into that your not gonna know what to do. So how do you step into each, each one of those pieces? Espree: You, outsourcing, time manage. You mean on a daily basis. Like what do I wake up and think? Brian: No. Like when you're, when you're starting a new business or you're growing something. Um, how do you go from you doing everything in a specific way to. Well, let's make this a little more efficient. You know, how do you? At, at what point, do you start? I mean, obviously you don't hire five people in one day. Espree: So, I start. No, I do. I find that outsourcing is so cost-efficient... Brian: Yeah. Espree: That, I'd start by thinking about what's gonna be delegated. Brian: Right. Espree: Like, and, that's really important. So, um, I, I wrote ah, a cheat sheet called outsourcing the cheat sheet. And, um, it's at the outsourcingcheatsheet.net. And, but I'm more than welcome. Brian: Click below. Espree: Yeah. But I'm more than welcome to tell you guys like, virtual is a great outsourcing tool. One of my favorite ones is fancy hands. Odesk. And that's what the outsourcing cheat sheet is. It's like, um, it tells you how to navigate around oDesk. I got my start on ELance. I don't wanna, I don't really use ELance anymore. I still have a team on, um, that I had hired off of ELance. But, really, like if I were gonna start outsourcing all over again I would go to oDesk. Which is why I wrote the cheat sheet about that. Um, these are all things that cost, and, and if ah, if anybody is interested. I don't know how you wanna do this but I'm more than happy to recommend you to a couple contractors in the Philippines and India that I work with. Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Espree: Yeah, so I don't know how you wanna handle that, but um. Brian: The link is below. Espree: Okay, yeah, so, um. Yeah, so the first thing I do is I make a list of all the stuff that needs to get done. And then I say, okay, what should I do and what should I delegate. Brian: Right. Espree: And then it's about knowing how to create the instructions for um, for ahh, for a practitioner to be able to do your job well. Brian: Yeah. Espree: So, yeah, and I wrote a blog post on um, this is just perfect, wrote a blog post on the founders card if you want a link to that. And it shows how to create outsource, instructions, that are really well. Brian: That's awesome. Espree: Cause you need to use video, you need to write things step by step. Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Espree: And uh, so yeah, I definitely do that first. And then um, here's the thing. Remember before I was talking about, like I learned something in the past few weeks that was just like epic and changed the way I wanna do things? Brian: Yup. Yup, lay it on me. Espree: Yeah, so one of my favorite, it's very simple. One of my favorite, favorite, favorite podcasts is um, productpeople.tv. Brian: Yup. Espree: I'm not sure if I told you about it before. Brian: Yup. A while ago. Espree: Um, it's productpeopletv and I listened to this entrepreneur and um, I know, it's terrible. I gotta like look up his name. Um, anyway, point is, is that what he did is before he starts any project he gives himself six successment checks. Um, um, on what he wants to achieve one by one. So um, productpeople is primarily for people who build software, right. So, um, he's gonna build a new project now to give a free web reference. To give a frame of reference, this guy has um, had about six companies acquired. And he does all of them this way. Which is amaze, I, I think he's 25 or something like that. Brian: Wow. Yeah. Espree: Um, it, you know, you know what I need to do this like after we get off. I'm gonna like look up what his name is cause that's just not fair. So you can link to his exact. Brian: Absolutely Espree: Cause it's not fair not to credit who this brilliant person actually is. Yeah. But, um, so, what he does is before you get started he like, finds. Like, oh, press gram is one of his companies right? Brian: Okay. Espree: So, he, he, liked instagram, but um, he liked what instagram did but he didn't want his content to be owned by instagram. Brian: Right. Espree: He's like, I wanna own my own photos. So, he created a web app called press gram. And, what he did is before creating press gram, he's like, okay, these are the metrics that I want for press gram. You know by, um, like six months I want like, a thousand users. Or something like that. Brian: Yeah. Espree: Or three months I want a thousand users. And he does most companies in six month increments. So, meaning, if he doesn't like, have his wins by six months, he like, ya know, like gets it away. Like maybe become inactive where he gives it to someone else. Brian: Right. Espree: Or whatever. But, the whole point is before you ever get started you know what you want your success to be. Brian: Yep. Espree: Um, and what outcome you want, or, know what, what you wanna be working on like, are you building a software. Not in this case but in this guys case. Brian: Right. Espree: Not for, for the people listening right now, but for this guys case. Building software and then how many users you want of that software by what time. So, what I, what I started doing, is a broke out a journal. And, so I just listened to this a few weeks ago but I was just like, this is awesome, right. And it really helps me re-shift how to focus my outsourcing as well because anything not related to those direct things should be outsourced right. Brian: Yeah. Absolutely. Espree: Like, even if I didn't feel like outsourcing it, they should be outsourced. So, um, again, as I was saying, I'm connected with everyone one on one on my email list is really important to me but it takes me hours. So, I'm just like, okay, what date do I wanna stop that. Brian: Yeah Espree: And to see what kind of R.O.Y, return on investment, I've gotten from it. And what is that return on investment? So I decided that I would return on investment was one like, you know, um, increasing my response rate with my email list when I do send a group email. Brian: Yeah. Espree: So, like, so if, so if I've already connected with you Brian one on one, when you get like ahh, ahh mass email from me, you're gonna be more apt to like, open it and respond to it. Because now you know that I'm genuine. Brian: Right, absolutely. Espree: Right, so that was like, one of the goals, right. So it's like, so to see, and then I would need to see if that indeed worked. Brian: Right. Espree: Ya know, yeah. So um, yeah. Brian: And you, you talked, I mean, you've obviously done a lot of outsourcing . . . Espree: Oh sorry., so I gave myself, sorry so I give myself a date . . . Brian: Yeah. Espree: So I gave myself a date to do that by. Brian: Yeah. Espree: And then to stop, then to create a new task. And the time so how much time would I dedicate to that because one day I spent seven hours on it. Right. Brian: Wow. Espree: So, like now, I'm like, okay, one hour a day will be to this specific task, but that I will do until this date. And this is the return that I want from that task, and on that completion date I will analyze if it was effective or not. Brian: Yup. Absolutely. And for multi-level marketing, that could be, ya know, recruiting, it could be sales, it could be a networking event. And, I mean, I personally got kind of trapped in networking events cause, ya know, here in the area, there's a lot of them. Espree: Yeah. Brian: And, they have good food and it's usually free. And, you know, you meet really great people, you connect with them, you build a relationship. But if at a certain point it's not building your business then you have to realize that's it's not a business activity. And,. . . Espree: Yeah. Brian: A lot of people forget to have those metrics so it's, it's really important to just take the time and sit down and focus on that end game. Espree: Everything you do. And, and we didn't finish our conversation about the office . Brian: Yeah. Espree: So, real quick because I know it's not the most important thing. I really like having an office in addition to my house. Um, the reason I'm not at the office right now is because people knock on my door. And then that's distracting . . . Brian: Yeah. Espree: So it's just kinda nice to be at home knowing, that, well, maybe the FEDex guy or something. But like, um, I really like that work life separation. Um, what do you, what are your thoughts on it? Brian: I mean, I ahh, previously I had a girlfriend living with me in my condo and uh, my other bedroom was my office. And, and so, my office was maybe two in a half feet from my bedroom. And, there is no work life separation. I mean you, you, have to walk by your bedroom to get to your office, and, and, it doesn't really make in difference in terms of physical location but psychologically it does. Espree: Yeah. Brian: And so one of the best things I ever did was I moved at the time I moved my office from that bedroom to my living room. Which was at the opposite end of my condo. And, was able to just again, psychologically, do that. And it's not necessarily about, you know, it could be about moving something. But, it's also about you know, if you go to a coffee shop or you know you, you, get a co-working space which aren't too expensive. Espree: Yeah. Brian: Um, but setting those boundaries so that your, and like you talked about before so that you can separate your work life from your personal life. And even though you enjoy your work life, if theres no personal life, um, you'll not enjoy the work life too much anymore. Espree: Yeah. And my office is two blocks from my house. So I can walk home get lunch, and go back, it doesn't have to be like, across town or something. Brian: Yeah. Absolutely. And, and, so, I mean, you talk a lot about outsourcing and , and, getting, you know, and figuring that out and planning it. Um, but you also and, and, I saw on the web as well, that you, you've built a significant team of, of people who you work with. Either as partners, or . . . Espree: Yeah. Brian: whatever, and in some capacity, and again, back to networking. Um, how, how long did it take you to assemble that and, and how did you know when you really connected with them and know that they're the right people? Espree: For, for the team who work with me? Brian: Yeah. Espree: That's, that's like an ongoing thing. I mean, it never ends. Um, if I have a specific project obviously I'm gonna be doing hiring. Brian: Yup. Espree: But, I'm always on the lookout for talented people and I make a mental checklist if I see someone. Like, even if I go into like a Starbucks and someone has a great positive attitude and I noticed their doing things really efficiently. I'll take note and if I ever need to hire someone that may be the person. There's countless people that I've made their careers because I picked them up off the street or something like. Brian: Yeah. Espree: I was actually thinking about this yesterday in the shower, when I was um . . . Brian: Best ideas. Espree: Yeah, I found this 19 year old kid. When I was, I don't know how old I was, I was like 24, or something. Brian: Yeah. Espree: Say, 25. I don't know, I don't remember, but it was a long time ago. I found this like 19 year old kid and he was like a paparazzi guy, like, ya know, kinda like trying to figure it out. Maybe he was 18, he had just moved, moved from wherever to L.A. and um. I just saw, like he was like this hustler and driven, and like. At this club and, I don't know, something about him, I was just like, I bet you like he like, he would be like a great photographer for my action sports stuff, ya know. Brian: Yeah. Espree: And, so I asked him and it turned out he had this huge interest in action sports industry and he became, ya know, a photographer. And one day, and my action sports company grew into a media network of like, we would like, shoot Tony Hawk and Ryan Sheckler, and all these people around the country of these pro athletes. And, I'd have all these hosts,and that's a whole other story, how I found all these hosts. But, I thought he was a really charismatic guy. So, I'm like, why don't you give hosting a shot today. And he's like, and, I'm like, trust me, right. And so he did and he was phenomenal at it. Ya know, and it's just about really paying attention to someone's core talents. And no matter what the setting is, but, like, don't wait for the setting . . . Brian: Yeah. Espree: to be perfect but find them in their own natural environment. And then like, kind of like puzzle piece them into your environment and see where they fit. Brian: That's an awesome piece of advice and, and yeah, I mean in the stories like that, and, and I've heard a few others from you. Um, it really is, it's not about, and, and, that's honestly truly what we are is about being a catalyst. And, and seeing someone and helping them do something that they were already capable of. Espree: Right. Brian: And, and, if you, if you do that and you build those relationships, it comes back and it helps your business regardless of what it is. Espree: Totally. Brian: And, so, uhh, I know you have to run but I have one more big question for you. Espree: Sure. Brian: Which, is in terms of multi-level marketing, where you know a lot of people get into it they don't necessarily have business experience. Some do, some don't. Um, but it's seen as a part-time business and most people start it part-time. Ahh, and we talked a little bit about this before the call . . . Espree: Yeah. Brian: but, what can people do to, see it more as a business and take it more seriously in the sense where. You know, they want to make it more efficient, and you know, not too many people in the MLM industry think about outsourcing and you know . . . Espree: Totally. Brian: and rates so how can we start? Espree: So,um yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because I was mentioning it. So I mentioned the Robert Kiyosaki and that's how I discovered MLM, and so when Robert Kiyosaki said there's this thing MLM I wanted to study it more because at this point I was already like super interested in business. So I found this herbalife office here in L.A. and, that was just like, amazing. Now, I'm not an herbalife distributor or something like that. I just purely wanted to see the mechanics of MLM because it gets such a bad rap sometimes, right. Brian: Yeah. Espree: And I'm just like, I wanna see if this stuffs real. If I had found this particular herbalife office. And I think it's about finding like, the right, you know, infrastructure to um, support your success. This particular herbalife office, they were run so well. I'm like if I had found them like five years before, I feel like I would never had failed. Because if you have a great multi leveling market team in place. Like, really solid multi-level marketing companies, their emphasis is educating you on how to be a dynamic business owner. Brian: Yup. Espree: And you get if for free. It's like, crazy. You had one on one people training you on it. I know because I spent, I think it was a year to a year and a half studying like this herbalife office. And I was blown away. At this point I think I had spent somewhere between like 100, or two hundred thousand dollars of my own money, like I don't know what year it was, so,so I don't remember. Brian: Yeah. Espree: But like, it was a ridiculous amount of money of my essentially learning how to. I mean they went towards failures but, what I did was that learning, learning from your mistakes or whatever. Brian: Absolutely. Espree: I mean, I have to learn from mistakes if I had joined herbalife, like, like, ya know, you're 20 years old something like that. Brian: Yeah. Espree: And, and I mean, I only wanna speak to this particular office, right. So, it's like, so, um, so yeah, I would watch it, everyday they'd have someone like, support them. And becoming stronger and set these success metrics. And like, you know, just be really passionate about what they were doing. So I think it's important to, and, and they have people within their organization that are like, you know, doing really well. And it's not just herbalife there's a lot of multi level marketing. You have to find the product or the thing that's right for you. Brian: Yeah. Espree: But the point is, a solid multi-level marketing company, what their built on is the foundation of educating people how to be amazing business owners to effectively help other people. Brian: Absolutely. Espree: Like that's the basis of a quality multi-level marketing company. No, no matter what brand. Right. Brian: Yeah. Espree: So like, finding a great one, taking the resources your team gives you in your multi-level marketing organization. And then, taking that extra step and like learning about how to outsource or like how to become a better delegator. There's another great book called work the system by Sam Carpenter,which you can get a free PDF on his website. Um, I'll give you the link. Like it tells you how to create better systems in your life. Time management, all this stuff. Like, I just feel like having a solid multi-level marketing company to get behind you is like a fast track to success. So, if someone's not taking it seriously as a business owner and thinking with the business owner head. And listen, if you, if you don't know what being a business owner is really, what taught me how to, what a business owner was, was four quadrants by Robert Kiyosaki. I would still recommend it because that book changed my life. It changed my perspective, it made a difference between being self-employed, being a business owner, being an employee, and being an investor. Brian: Yeah. Espree: And it's important to know the difference between those four things, right. So, like knowing the difference, taking yourself seriously as a business owner, and then just really like being the best you can possibly be. I don't know why you wouldn't do that if you already have a solid, you know, ML, MLM company behind you. Brian: Yeah. Espree: Because it literally would have fast tracked me. I would have saved hundreds of thousands of dollars if I had the resources that they gave the, the, people that come in touch with their office. Yeah. Brian: Yeah. And, there's a , there's a, ton of training out there. And, and, that's awesome because, you know a lot of times people just have to you know, like you said. They have to accept what's already there so that they can you know say, well okay, I don't know this. Teach me. Espree: Yeah Brian: And, it extends outside of that to, to everything so that's . . . Espree: And no one says, it's not like some overnight like, like, you know, lotto ticket. Like, like, becoming a successful business owner isn't that something that happens like you sign up for whatever multi-level marketing program you signed up for and you think, like,the next week you're gonna have like fifteen thousand dollars a month. Like people work hard but, like really are they take the people who make who made okay, the multi level marketing people make an obscene amount of money. Like successful people, they make, I, something like, and correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm remembering it's some people make like a hundred thousand a month. Brian: Yeah, and even like above that too. Espree: Like, yeah, right. Like those people didn't get there by like, they built, like a building to get there. Brian: Yeah. Espree: Like, one brick at a time. You know, they didn't just overnight get there. Like every single day they worked at it. They set a schedule for themselves. Whether, it was like, I'm working on four hours a day every day from like, you know, like 9 to 12, or 9 to 1,or whatever. Or, they said this is what I'm getting done. Or, I'm gonna like recruit or, whatever word you guys use. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, recruit 12 people this week. And if I don't recruit 12 I'm gonna think about what I did and reevaluate and do something different the next week, and . . . Brian: Yeah. Yup. Espree: This is the number of people I want at the end of the month. This is how many people I wanna train. This is my training, this is how I'm gonna become a better leader. I'm gonna read this, this, and this, book to become a better leader so I can train people under me to be more effective. Brian: Yeah, yeah. Espree: Like, people who get it. Listen, the kind of businesses I build, it's ridiculously hard to get to a hundred thousand dollars a month, right. Being an MLM, is like, a sure fire path to get there as long as you have follow the steps and you have the right team around you. Brian: Absolutely. Espree: And that's all up to you being ready to succeed. And, I, I can say that first hand, not just like, this is my. I mean it is just my opinion. But I sat in an herbalife office for a year and a half watching them . . . Brian: Right. Espree: So I know, this is what happens and I watched them make this much money. And I watched them like, go from new to, like seasoned, to like. I watch office's being built. I watched programs being put into place. Like, like for instance, for this particular herbalife I'm exposed to. Like they put exercise programs in place. No one's getting paid for exercise programs. But don't you think that's another thing, to like draw more people in to be exposed to their, herbalife brands, you know, and the positive energy of this particular office. Like, the, I mean, so many wonderful things. So I'm not just . . . Brian: That's awesome. Espree: saying it as, but, off the top of my head this is what I've heard of herbalife. I like sat in a multi-level marketing organization for a long time and it is one of the fastest paths to success, possible. Like, it's crazy. And, it's really cool. And it's just, it's just, a matter, is it right for you. Is it a product you believe in? Is this a life experience that you wanna take? Brian: Yeah, that's awesome. Espree: I like, I like building software. So everybody's like, why don't you do it then. I really am a nerd and I like to develope software. Brian: And you have a shirt that says that if I remember correctly. Espree: Yeah, yeah, I am a geek. I usually wear it, but today I felt like being colorful. But um, yeah, I like building software so that's why I just gravitate to anything about like, software companies. And so that's just, that's just who I am and you know, again, it's about being honest with yourself about what's right for you. Kind of like, again, the scaling, emailing a zillion people at one time. Brian: Yeah. Espree: Or like, emailing people one on one. A lot of people would say, I can't believe she does that, that's so ineffective. But you know what it's right for me. Brian: Right. Espree: And, yeah. Brian: That's awesome. And you have to adapt. You can't really change your core. And that's awesome. Well, thank you so much again for coming on and I think people will really enjoy, um, your experience, and the tips that you talked about in terms of . . . Espree: Totally. Brian: thinking efficiently, and, and, optimizing, and uh, hopefully Espree: If you ever need different software tools, check out savebusinesstime. Brian: Absolutely. And, and, all the link are gonna be below. Um, if you're in the L.A. area, remember it's outsourceyourlovelife.com. I'm just kidding. And, ahh, Espree: That's really funny. If you wanna cyber stalk me just go to espreedevora.com. Brian: That's awesome. Thank you so much again and,uh, yeah, that, that's awesome. Espree: And you could tweet me at espree devora. That's my twitter. For all the tweeters. Brian: Thank you and um, again, all the links are going to be below and uh, you rock. Espree: Aww, thanks man, thanks for having me. This has been awesome. You, listen you guys, you like what you're watching, like, success. Seriously, it's within your power right now. And I know it's really hard to believe like coming from someone you don't know. And thinking that I have everything, you know, mapped out, and my life is perfect. But no one's life is perfect and it's all about the actions we take because you could take every action and it could lead to success. And as long as you're making decisions, and moving forward, even if you make a wrong move. You'll still be that much further ahead. Brian: That rocks.